Simsecret Discussion

[strangetomato]

Man, it's been a while since I've been so involved in a discussion in simsecret (about warnings for gay content, and how this contributes to homophobia vs. it being a legitimate warning for the "genre" of slash). I don't always jump into the fray of these debates, but gender and sexuality are the topics where I can't help but suit up and yell, "Okay, let's play ball!" :P Yes, you could say they are my pet isms, in the sense that they are the ones I am mostly tuned in to.

If anyone wants to toss out their two cents (or more) here, we can continue the chat. Feel free to discuss and debate among yourselves. Just keep it clean, folks.

ETA: After using the sports metaphor above, I ended up with Centerfield by John Fogerty in my head. Argh! It's like I'm stuck at a family wedding back home in The Cove (name of hometownvillage has been changed to protect the guilty). :P

And I've added a music suggestion to hopefully lighten the mood (and because my SO has amassed something of a Big Fat Gay Music Collection).

Comments

[profbutters.livejournal.com]

Thanks for starting this rolling!

I think there's a difference in fanfiction, where there are strong "can't stand slash" AND "can't stand gen" contingents. "Gen," "M/M," and "F/F" are categories. An outright warning, to me, is something like "non-con," or "violence."

The Sims 2 is different. I used to write directly on the Exchange. There were things you had to avoid, such as Naughty Words and Implied Nudity. Same-sex relationships weren't one of them.

It's really interesting this came up, because a fellow writer and I just started a locked "slash" comm for a couple of characters. It started as a joke--aka a "crack pairing"--and actually it's taken on a little life of its own. Why are we calling it slash? I'm not sure, unless it's because it only deals with certain characters, it's almost certainly AU, and might confuse our regular readers.

I've noticed that some people can't distinguish between "slash" and "porn" and that is a problem, too.

In my regular story, I've had several same-gender romance story lines. They're all of the same nougaty sweetness as the rest of my story and I ain't gonna "warn" for them, sorry.

I also really strongly object to the way "homosexual content" automatically kicks a TV or a movie into "adult themes" or "mature audiences" and I don't want to play into that.

Hope this was not too teal deer.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I'm heading out of town for most of the day (Road trip! Sunny day! Woooohooo!), but I hope someone else will join you in this discussion. I will be back later.

And I happen to raise herds of teal deer around here for fun, so "give 'er bickies." (Yeah, I'm still on this dialect kick. Sorry about that. :P)

ETA: Spoke too soon. We have a flat tire. I'm still heading out, but seems like it'll be decidely less fun. *sigh* Wish me luck.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure of the whole context of all of this (finally took simsecret off my list a few months ago Woo!) but my opinion is that if people are going to be required to warn for Slash then they should also be required to warn for Het.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think that came up, and I agree to a point (at least in the sense that both are treated the same), but I don't personally agree with categorizing by sexuality in any sense. I know it's a fandom convention, but I think we really ought to toss it aside, especially where sims are concerned.

ETA: Not to mention that there are about 7691236519 grey areas that aren't "het" or "slash" or anything else so neatly defined.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

It's been said a little bit over in simsecret, and I've also seen it over at GoS, in their SS discussion thread: the big problem is that a "warning" generally designates something that's bad.

Obviously, most people here who put non-heterosexual content in their stories aren't against it, so they don't mean that warning as a bad thing.

I think if we figured out a better word than warning (I used "interest" in SS but I think that's a little off) we could use that and it wouldn't be as bad?

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

The big problem is that a "warning" generally designates something that's bad.

Exactly.

Or that it's something ususual. Pooklet had some great, well-spoken comments about othering gays by feeling the need to mention if homosexual content is present. It's true.

[cindyanne1.livejournal.com]

I remember back in the beginning when I first started to write sims stories, I didn't warn for anything. Later, once I started to get more jiggy wit' my pictures I would warn for that and for other questionable behaviors (ahem incest ahem) but I don't think I've ever felt the need to warn for gay and/or lesbian content. Graphic content, sure... but that goes for het as well.

Not saying I haven't warned for m/m, f/f in the past... but if I did it was because I'd seen it being done on other stories and thought it was the way things were.

I agree we need to change the thinking on it. Graphic sex should probably be warned for, but sex isn't graphic simply because it involves same-sex couples.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I warn for the smut factor as well, not for the parts involved in them. I think warnings for violence and sex in general are fair, as this is what we base our entertainment ratings on. Oh, and language, if warranted. Those are the only ones I worry about.

It's courtesy to warn for potential triggers, also, as you mentioned the incest thing, and I know violence and non-consent (aka rape — yeah, let's call a spade a spade) can potentially be very damaging for survivors (or victims, if they prefer) to read. I feel the same way for mental health issues, so I also usually warn for extreme despair and depression, if I remember to. Obviously, I'm not perfect with warnings and all that, and some of the times I'm pretty tongue in cheek with it.

And yeah, I think gay content tends to have an impact on ratings out there in the entertainment world (didn't someone say it instantly makes for an adult rating?), but it shouldn't. This is OUR sim comm, and we can make our own rules, right?

[blissy-lettuce.livejournal.com]

"Warning" for homosexual content contributes to a culture of othering homosexuals, which is just damn stupid. If I started tacking warnings onto everything in my stories that wasn't related to the primarily white, hetrosexual "norm expectation" some readers may go into expecting... tsh.

Many people like that norm because it makes them feel secure, but they lock themselves into such a tiny box. Although, at first, it was hard for me to read through some of your stories I always felt like my ability to understand the expansive and diverse qualities of human nature was expanded afterward - this being because I had never run into a lot of the concepts you were presenting OUTSIDE of a smut-environment, like poly and casual sex. Sheltered Mormon upbringing has screwed me over more than a little now that I am in the "real world."

OP at SS prolly likes their tiny, safe box and wants to try to navigate the world within it, which is really sad, because it says MORE if they get so upset over it they want to write a secret rather than just click that little ol' X. I used to be the same way because of how strictly I was raised - and so of course when I was presented with my first real love, I reacted with anger and fury and nearly destroyed both of us, because we were both women. Homophobia and fury consumed me, till I finally broke - and damn, the sense of peace that came after all those years of anger and confusion...? If I had had stories like yours - even if I did read them in the dark of night glancing guiltily over my shoulder - to read at that time, it would have... made me see that things could work out and I would BE okay. As it is we're now confronting some poly consideration and, once again, among many resources your stories continue to help contribute to the norming of these concepts and help keep me calm, when my poor childhood sculpted brain says I'm about to fall into a dark world of debauchery and misery.

Life is so full of diversity and amazing, unique quirks. I really hope OP realizes that before they end up missing out on a lot of it.

tltr; Homosexual warning -> no. Smut warning -> prolly, depending on level. Stumbling into stories like yours and reading them anyway -> expands world view, IMHO, and is pretty priceless in its own way.

I would say that you are quite brave for writing the way you do - but then again, I wish I didn't have to say it... if that makes sense. xD Your writing is bold, I'll put it there, and I love it. Tacking warnings on might make people avoid it, which I think would be a major loss in many ways for them. /rambling over

[ladymirrabella.livejournal.com]

*de-lurks*
I've seen this thread, because I'm addicted to all the drama happening in secret communities. I was really glad when most people agreed with the poster, because it is a big problem in the literary world.

Many, many authors all over the internet slap a big warning for slash of m/m or whatever they decide to call it. Let's not forget about the threatening: "if you don't like it, go away you heathen!11!". This is the point I usually click the nifty 'x'. As you all above me mentioned, the real warnings should be for sex, kinky sex, violence, etc., not who is engaging in it. I would even stomach a warning for Harlequin romance, since it's a legitimate one for me ;) . The only place, I could see it, not as a warning, but an information, it's the fanfiction world. Once again someone said it: just mention the people involved and you're done.

This is all an utopian ideal when dealing with the internet - because it's full of bigots, trolls and idiots. They love to be warned for everything existing, so it doesn't shatter their little world. On the other hand, I've seen pretty intelligent people who "accept" (as in tolerate as long it is in the distance of 100m) gays, but shudder when reading about anything mentioning them.

Then, we have the real world, where people also love to stay inside their comfort zones. While there are no warnings slapped on films or books, they are sorted into proper categories and given a higher rating. Even those not revolving around romance. I've seen this done so many times - every book in my country with gay characters automaticly goes into the gay bin and gets an article on "tolerance". It worries me, because if I ever decide to publish my novel where the narrator happens to be bi and lands with a man in the end, it will end up there. Not reaching the targeted audience at all - because it's not about romance - it's a crime novel.

Okay, did I go off topic? I'm bad at ranting.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

That whole section about labeling books IRL is interesting to me, because at some point in that whole SS discussion there was a lot of talk about subgenres and I was actually not exactly sure if real world bookstores had a tendency to lump queer fiction together as something like a subgenre.

Next time I go into a bookstore I'm going to try looking at the romance section and see if I can find any gay fiction put among it's numbers without singling it out in a section all of its own.

[dinuriel.livejournal.com]

*emerges from the shadowy corner of lurkers*

Okay, potentially incoherent comment coming right up (errr... I just woke up, okay? Sorry):

I have to agree with everyone else. With a heterosexual couple, there probably won't be a warning unless somebody takes their clothes off, but the "slash" warning goes on for something like a kiss or hand-holding between characters of the same sex? What's wrong with this picture? It does make you stop and think. Like you said, if someone stumbles across a piece involving homosexuality and has a problem with it, they know where the back button is, and they know how to use it. Homosexuality doesn't have to be implied as being "bad" just for the comfort of homophobes; all that does is encourages them, and I doubt that any slash writer intends to do that.

In all honesty, though... personally, I barely even notice warnings on other people's stuff, so I don't really see them as being all that powerful. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but I'm probably not the only one. I don't really bother looking, because I'm not really disturbed by much in fiction and I always read from the privacy of my own home. With my own stuff, I just put obnoxious blanket warnings up on my sites, because I find warnings on individual chapters can potentially act as spoilers. On individual posts, I'll warn if the sims get naked, just as a courtesy to those who might be reading in a public place, and I try to warn for potential triggers (though that does often come into conflict with the spoiler thing), but that's about it. Warnings for language, violence, implied sexual situations regardless of hetero/homosexuality... I don't know, those just sort of strike me as unnecessary.

Then again, maybe I just make the mistake of assuming people don't read the warnings just because I don't read the warnings. Obviously, someone noticed the homosexuality warning, hence the reason for this discussion. I don't know. If an author wants to warn, I suppose it's their story, but they should definitely think about what does and what doesn't merit a warning. As someone mentioned before, anything that gets warned about is automatically labeled as being "bad", which homosexuality is most certainly not, and it seems to me that the last thing any slash writer wants to do is imply that it is.

I hope this comment sort of made sense. Sorry if it didn't :(

[annaf94.livejournal.com]

I think that warning should be for things that may be unsuitable for some people to see. So language, and graphic scenes aren't suitable for, say, younger people. They may not see it in everyday life, so being protected from it on her (via warning) is understandable.

But bi/homosexuality isn't necessarily something that you would be protected from seeing in the real world; you see it nearly everywhere, and you WILL come across it at some point, so having to be warned about that? I don't see how homosexuality would be unsuitable for some people to see, because it's inevitable that you'll have to deal with it at some point.

I think that it is ridiculous to have to warm about it. You wouldn't always get a warning in real life - at least you can usually tell when a person/ if a person is the sort to use strong language, and there'll always be warnings for sexually explicit things, but homosexuality would just be there, right in front of you, and there's not really anything you could do to avoid it, like not listening to people who curse, or seeing explicit stuff.

Gah, I'm having trouble explaining quite what I mean. but anyway, I think that it's completely and utterly unnecassary, and there's no reason that anyone should need to be warned about/protected from it.
Meh. Long post is long.

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

I remember this topic coming up in your journal before, and my embarrassing efforts to defend such warnings. My opinions might have changed a little because of it.

I agree with the points about the othering aspects of such warnings, but I'd also add: when would such a warning/label even be necessary? What I mean is, if the story is focused in any way on a romantic relationship that should come up in your summary or (if we're talking fanfiction and the like) your Pairings. But if we're talking background fluff or a throwaway line, why should that merit any comment at all? Surely the only people who would care about such a thing are people whose sensibilities we don't want to appeal to?

I understand why people do feel the need to warn (I've done it in the past myself), and part of it comes from "But that's what everybody does!" I think. But...well not buts, it needs to stop.

[vallicious.livejournal.com]

Personally, I just don't understand warning for slash unless you're including a graphic sex scene (in which case I would just say "warning: graphic sex scene").

[harlowstories.livejournal.com]

I haven't commented nearly enough (but know that I'm reading), but I had to skip over to simsecret to read the original conversation after reading this.

I was nodding along, agreeing with the argument/debate/discussion between you and Pooklet (because I really believe you were arguing to the same end and the differences were primarily in phrasing), when I noticed you're from NEWFOUNDLAND!

And I died XD

Sorry to interrupt your awesome discussion in support of dispelling homophobia and encouraging the recognition of the fact that homosexuality is not a topic that deserves a warning, but I really have to say...

Hello, fellow Newfoundlander :D

P.S. I never would've thought "right on" meant anything but "pretty cool" ^^;

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

Yes b'y. ^_^ Right on!

Are you still living here or are you one of the countless Newfoundlanders living off the island? I'm convinced there are far more out there than those that remain.

I know I'm pushing it when I include Newfoundland expressions, even in quotes, but that's my own desire to see Newfoundland culture put out there, outside of the Newfie jokes and all that "fun stuff." I'd love for people to experience it more often, because it's just so unique.

But yeah, pretty much nobody who doesn't have a connection to Newfoundland will know what you're saying when you ask them, "What are you at?" :P

Latest site

[(Anonymous)]

Novel work
http://analplug.tobuy.in/?gain.theresa
erotic dance video erotic circus adult sex best erotic books top erotic films

Adult position

[(Anonymous)]

Started new spider's web predict
awesome girls wallpapers tablet android phone sexy girls themes best android tabs apk free download for android
http://sex.games.android.porndairy.in/?profile.jayden
nacked girls free mobile games download saxey saxey saxey free adult game android google smartphone

Callow Protrude

[(Anonymous)]

Free pictures
free adult erotic tv shows erotic sci fi erotic romance erotic shows
http://bbw.erolove.in/?yasmin
erotic mp4 fetish erotic kids big tits free potno movis

Delivered grown-up galleries

[(Anonymous)]

Pornographic blog pictures from internet
erotic read sexi erotic drama online victorian erotic books erotic retreat
http://blowdjob.net.erolove.in/?tara
erotic life erotic phrases bollywood erotic erotic poems erotic hypnosis orgasm

Sexual pictures

[(Anonymous)]

New kick ass photo blog
http://hotties.pictures.erolove.in/?post.devyn
indianvidio sex busty brunettes battle lesbian old sears catalog scans pictures of nissan 350z

Matured position

[(Anonymous)]

New sissy girls blog website
the sexual woman black t shirt v neck country kitchen sinks
http://sissies.purplesphere.in/?blog.katelyn
quebec seed bank cannabis seed online brown suede boots pretty boy clothes free sissy boy tube babes and old men thesaurus dictionary download jokes women

Grown up position

[(Anonymous)]

Recent sovereign porn place
erotic music adult toys erotic baby erotic japanese free xxx sexy movies
http://groupsex.net.erolove.in/?janie
erotic poem erotic wiki erotic cake erotic france erotic bath

Free full-grown galleries

[(Anonymous)]

Hi supplementary website
http://singles.dating.twiclub.in/?gain.darlene
russian women bride chennai girls online free lesbian chats free single dating sites uk russian dating sites pictures

Grown up placement

[(Anonymous)]

Sexy pctures
erotic drawing best erotic films free adult game victorian erotic novels free erotic novels
http://groupsex.net.erolove.in/?arlene
tits erotic lovers adult sex erotic funny erotic games download

Open grown-up galleries

[(Anonymous)]

Delivered pictures
erotic breastfeeding ter erotic roman erotic art erotic madonna adult vidios
http://gayarab.erolove.in/?micaela
erotic wiki wow erotic online erotic literature erotic foot massage erotic apps

New site

[(Anonymous)]

Redesigned bare pictures
real sex erotic dating services american erotic erotical erotic content
http://japan.erolove.in/?diamond
erotic download erotic fanfic romance erotic erotic figures erotic lines

My brand-new website

[(Anonymous)]

Fresh launched porn position
erotic lounge cd erotic actresses adult cartoons classic erotic art erotic tales sbs
http://shemale.erolove.in/?rocio
indian sex erotic graphic novel hardcore erotic sculptures erotic experience

Communal pictures

[(Anonymous)]

Sexy photo blog
http://asslick.photo.erolove.in/?post.arianna
long island school district numbers tube swinger how to fuck bbs scandal sex animal what is the fastest way to get rid of stomach fat

Recent plat

[(Anonymous)]

Vacant pictures
erotic cosplay sex online erotic fiction erotic novels online erotic couple massage
http://lesbians.net.erolove.in/?esther
erotic statue victorian erotic photographs free adult sites sexx auto erotic asphyxia