Discussion: Strong Female Characters

[strangetomato]

This is mostly for will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).

In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.

The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)

Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.

 

Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.

Comments

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

I like this discussion and will be back later to talk about it, but I must go shopping ATM. :(

Basically, I agree with pretty much everything you say here.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I'd love to hear what you have to say, because I think you've made some excellent points on this in the past.

[ownsimscorner.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely think a female Frances would be perceived as annoying and pretty much the scrappy of the story instead of the woobie.

And just think how different the reactions to R/O/J would be if their genders were reversed. Ripp and Johnny would fall into the the stereotypical Betty & Veronica character types and, unfortunately, Phi would be much more popular as a male. :/ Likewise, a male Nina would have tons of fans and stories about being changed by the love of a good woman...

It really does suck that writing a character as female brings up such baggage in a way a male one doesn`t. Female characters still aren`t allowed to be fully flawed and complex as males - they`re still placed into whore/madonna territory or alternatively weak(pathetic) versus strong(bitchy).

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I was using Frances as an example of someone who's very similar to Ophelia in temperment, but much more well-received. In addition to the brooding introspection, Frances is also a snob and fairly contemptuous of most people, yet he's still sympathetic. I have gotten numerous negative reactions to Phi, though, ranging from straight dislike to "I just don't get her."

Love the Betty/Veronica/Archie comparison! :P Nobody gave Archie any crap for it, did they? It was also way more accepted that Betty and Veronica would be cool with sharing. It was a harder sell for Ripp and Johnny. I felt like it was necessary to put them through the wringer a little more to even make it make sense. With girls, I wouldn't have needed it so much.

A female Nina would be more like a Ripp, I agree. I do enjoy the characters of Dina and Nina as they are, though. People do tend to usually settle Nina down with Don, though, and I don't really see the need for that. I do enjoy that idea that they're special to each other, but it's not the only way. Nina could just be left as a free-wheeling romance sim. (The "never settle down" vs. the "marry them off" is a whole 'nother discussion for romance sims. I think both are valid, since both do happen.)

It's limited for the male characters too, in a way. They also have to fight against gender assumptions. There's no doubt it's harder for female characters to win out, though. We see it time and again.

[muslemura.livejournal.com]

I started writing a reply with a lot of horrible broken English when I wandered just a bit further into the internet and found this essay by the same Sarah:
http://www.sarahreesbrennan.com/essayladies.html

She says it so much better than I ever would :P Basically, I agree ^^;

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

^_^

It makes me sad and bitter to know that Frances would be almost universally disliked, if not hated, if his name were a proper reflection of his gender. I'd like to think otherwise, but given the appalling level of vitriol you can see...I just don't. :(

Your more familiar with the Maxis premades than I am, but the impression I've gotten is that many of them do get strong armed into "traditional" situations with women playing second fiddle to their husbands/brothers/lovers/guy friends/whatever. Though, like you said the game is open ended enough, and the back stories tend to be vague enough, that you don't necessarily have to accept this. But still. I will say, in the two examples you listed:

I think a large part of the impression of Dina as a gold digger is powerfully perpetuated in game, with the suggestion that her and Nina's interest in Morty is "fiscal," her memory of a big insurance claim after Michael's death, her wanting to "make it big" without thinking. And I do think a lot of this would carry over if she were Nino instead, though the term gold digger might not be used - it doesn't seem to be used in association with men much at all. But I do think there would be a general impression that "Nino" was only marrying for money. People would probably be more sympathetic towards him, though, and I have to wonder what the opinion of Mortimer would be if he were Morticia? Somehow, I expect she would take a lot more blame for "stupidly" falling for Nino's tricks.

You have no idea how much I wish Don had been Donna instead. :< Against all logic, I love him, but I'd love her so much more. Chastity Gere comes close to being a girl!Don, I think, in that she's in a "successful" demanding career (business vs. medicine), and a description that suggests a casual approach to sex and serial heartbreaking. The nonexistence could be explained away as laziness on EAs part, in that the stories for the new hoods aren't nearly as well put together as the old ones. But that's still a problem.

I would love to write, or see written, stories about the gender-bent PView. It changes a lot of how the characters are perceived, but also how they're developed. Looking at Don again, he's intended, so it seems, to be strongly defined by his masculinity. If you accept that you're assuming a world where those gender roles exist, and at the least it makes it difficult to carry that same characterization and "manliness" over to a female character. Which begs the question, can you even have a Don-like character who's defined by her femininity instead?

My own personal preference is towards female characters who are badass, possibly "too" badass. This is pretty strongly driven by my love of fantasy/action/scifi genres, where the hero kicks ass and takes names. Every now and then I like to think the Big Damn Hero/BAMF can look like me (because I am not like those heroes at all). But it makes me physically angry when people when people say a woman can't be a good character if she's weak or sensitive. The theory I've seen behind that is that a female character is usually seen to represent EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER EVERYWHERE EVER, so if she's weak, she's perpetuating stereotypes. But at the same time, if she's a bitch she's also perpetuation stereotypes, and if she's too assertive she's a bitch. If she's not assertive enough she's weak. So she has to be perfect, but then she's boring.

I while back I actual saw a question on ffrantsrants asking if it's even possible to write a good female character. The answer is yes, so I'd think the more appropriate question would be "Is it possible to write a female character that will be perceived as 'good'?".

*rambles*

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

ohai thar wall-o-text. D:

I'm not really sorry, though. Sorry. D:

[ikichi.livejournal.com]

YES.(Sorry, I was re-reading my roommate's Y- the Last Man and went off on a "Goddammit WTF are you doing to 355?!" rant. It's like it's ok that she gets the brunt of the abuse because she's the badass secret agent or some shit. Of course, I also love how a comic with ONE GUY can be so dan misogynistic.)

[simnovoris.livejournal.com]

My own personal preference is towards female characters who are badass, possibly "too" badass. This is pretty strongly driven by my love of fantasy/action/scifi genres, where the hero kicks ass and takes names. Every now and then I like to think the Big Damn Hero/BAMF can look like me (because I am not like those heroes at all). But it makes me physically angry when people when people say a woman can't be a good character if she's weak or sensitive. The theory I've seen behind that is that a female character is usually seen to represent EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER EVERYWHERE EVER, so if she's weak, she's perpetuating stereotypes

This. Yes. I think men are accepted as individuals, as human beings first and foremost and men second, and thus male characters can be anything they want to be.

It's the same way with minority groups, just look at how homosexual characters were represented fifteen years ago. Still are to some extent. Always the incredibly trustworthy, loyal, sweet gay best friend who never had any sex ever and just stood there as a shoulder to cry on when the female lead needed to. (Melrose Place must be the perfect example of this.) Sometimes they died of AIDS, too. But of course the gay male can't be an asshole, that would mean all gay men are assholes.

[(Anonymous)]

(delurking now. I have been reading your story for awhile but never commented so I guess the first thing I should do is say hello. I really enjoy your story and the discussions on here.)

I know this is a little off topic. The main issue I have is what defines a strong female character. I have noticed in fiction and in real life that women who are loud and in your face tend to be considered strong and women who are soft spoken and polite are seen as weak or pathetic. Strong to me is strong willed. Someone who is able to persevere no matter the circumstances. I don't believe that outspoken people are necessarily strong by that definition and soft spoken people are not necessarily weak.

Jen

[ikichi.livejournal.com]

It's funny, because this recently came up (again) in Shortpacked!. Amber, a main character, started out an insanely shy doormat. When she first started being more assertive, her best friend (Ethan) started distancing himself from her, and was called on it by another guy, Mike ("Didn't have you pegged for a predator").

Now she's found her balance, is more or less happy, and is in a relationship with Mike, the resident asshole (she went in knowing he was an ass, and he's not abusive towards her, so I guess as long as it's working for her?), she's getting blasted for being a whore. WHAT. (At least the creator has her back.)

edit: let's have a proper response, yes?
It's still very much a minefield when a character isn't "straight, white, and male" since it's still expected to be the relatable norm. It's ass, but its still the nature of the beast. Everyone who falls outside of that box is going to be looked at more critically. A favorite example is Anya from Buffy. By the end of the series , I was getting fed up with how genocidal the show was (I know, I'm weird). (Spike,) Anya and Clem (and Lorne on Angel) were pretty much token demons- they weren't evil, but the main cast still thought "evil" went hand in hand with "demon".

Fans NEVER accepted anything Anya did. When she sang that she was good with math, people bitched because when she was recently humanized (3-4 years earlier!) she said she was failing math. Nevermind she had been a demon for 1,100 years and in the interim discovered that she loved money. Doesn't it make sense for a budding capitalist to make an effort to learn math?! No one cared that she'd only been human for a short time and was in a constant state of culture shock. No one cared that she was the oldest regular character and treated her like she was younger than Buffy.


No point, just bitching.

[simnovoris.livejournal.com]

The whole Pleasantview story is a very good example of different standards for men and women. Despite the fact that we're able to do whatever we want with the characters, most people accept that Dina is a golddigger and Nina is the token Bad Girl/Slut. Both of them are either comic relief or manipulative bitches. It seems we're supposed to pity Cassandra for being engaged to a man with an obvious Madonna-Whore complex and cheer for her if she gets dumped becuase then she can move on to something better OR if they do get married she can redeem him with her family-oriented love. (Is she Family? I keep seeing her as Knowledge.)

Well, screw that one-dimensional logic. :) For every "golddigger" there's an old man who wants to marry a young girl for whatever reason (some of them creepy, some less so). For every slut there are a ton of men who wants to sleep with her. But it's always women who get the low status.

Female characters aren't usually allowed to be anything but perfect. If you write about rape or abuse you make the woman a victim and we can never be victims. Nor too strong. Nor too pretty. And not eccentric, thank you very much.

I could rant about this forever since I'm currently writing about the Caliente sisters. Sorry about that. :)

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

I fucking love the Caliente sisters. I think Dina is probably the smartest person in that whole damn town and Nina breaks my heart, because I always get the feeling that she really isn't sure what she wants at all.

...I wish I had a Nina icon. :(

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy

Olive Specter & Circe Beaker? :D

Don't have much to add at the moment, just wanted to thank for the link, it was an interesting read.

[smjoshsims.livejournal.com]

Ooo, I love me some discussion!

Firstly: I totally agree with everything the post says, and EVERYTHING will_o_whisper said, so no point in rehashing.

I think Harriet Potter would have been killed of she were real. I HATE Harry Potter, actually, for the same reasons that people would have hated Harriet: he was annoying, whiny, selfish, impulsive and emo. He was also a Mary-Sue, but people don't like to mention that. He may have been "flawed", but as sarahtales said, he still got the girl(s), was loved by all and had a million and a half friends.

You know I love strong female charcters. I love them because they're strong, emotionally, ruthless, powerful, and they know what they want. I also love "weak" female characters- you know I love Ophelia. I think I do have a tendency to like a character more if she's written as strong from the start, like Tara from true Blood- she started off as a tough, wounded woman who was butter and angry. Now, in Season 2, she's hated by most everyone because she's annoying and whiny. I kind of hate her too, but I can't pinpoint the exact reason why.

As most everyone said, I think it's the nature of the game to "switch" their perceptions of a character depending on their gender. Like Alyssa said, women are expected to be these beacons of strength no matter what they go through, whether realistic or not. Like Ophelia- if she ever mentions her dead parents everyone whines that she's being emo. It's ridiculous for us to expect female characters to stay the same ALL THE TIME. if they were dealt a shitty lot in life, let them be who they want to be!

I had more I wanted to say but I forgot. I feel like everything's been said. D:

I'll be back.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

God, I love Tara. I could never hate her, even now when she's hit this rock bottom of sorts. Also, I do think Maryann was good for her in some ways and I hope the show acknowledges this when all is said and done. It IS okay to like yourself and to want to be happy. It's okay to be selfish and sexy and out of control now and then. It's about moderation.

I want to see how the show wraps up the Maryann narrative. She was more interesting when she was a morally grey character. Now that she's all out CRAZY AS FUCK, it's easier to hate her and damn her ideals. But they aren't BAD ideas of life.... they're just EXTREME. And you can't be all happy or all angry or all sad ALL the time. You'd die.

I love season one Tara with all my soul, but I'd like to think she's going to grow as a character from all these experiences. She's such a powerful girl and it's heartbreaking to see Maryann take away her control and intelligence like that. :(

[tanathir.livejournal.com]

Hrm, well I do have a Dawn Lothario from an old asylum challenge...she hooked up with Sim!Jesus and they now have two kids. Tasty madness, my game is it. XD

It's something to think about, the what-if certain well-known characters were female instead of male, and how an audience would accept them or not. The thing I find great about Sims is that they aren't preprogrammed with stereotypical male and female roles. Sims themselves don't make distinctions based on sex. Ripp is just as likely to be a crybaby as Ophelia. In my game, Meadow Thayer is a bit more in-charge than her common law husband Ripp, Anther has two mommies, and Tank seems to prefer bottoming to Frances. It could be how I choose to write them, but the game does allow for a lot more gender flexibility.

[zepheera.livejournal.com]

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy

I'd love a good ruthless female bad guy who didn't also have to be the seductress, or have the back story of being evil because she's not beautiful and hates the universe because of it. I want an female villain who's evil because she IS!

[sims-gone.livejournal.com]

This is a really interesting discussion! I wonder if the backlash against female characters by female audiences has to do with the fact that we can identify with them and put ourselves in their places. Like, when they make a decision that we disagree with, we think less of them because if _we_ were in that position we would do so much better. When it's a male character, we're less likely to put ourselves in their shoes and tend to more just watch and see what they do and be entertained. Especially if the character has sex appeal to us, we are much more forgiving!

In my experience, men tend to be much harder on male characters than women are. They will complain about the character being whiny or emo and express disbelief that they end up with the girl.

I don't doubt that sexism plays a role in this phenomenon, too (assertive female characters are pretty universally read as "bitches"), but I think part of it is a funny quirk of human nature.

[crushthecamera.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to think of something actually useful to say but I'm quite brainfoggy today, so: I like this post and think you and the resulting discussion are extremely nifty.

I think the shorthand of "strong female character" often gets misinterpreted to mean just literally physically strong, instead of what we really mean, which is well-rounded, deep, believable, human characters rather than a collage of stereotypes sticky-taped together (but then if a well-rounded character does exhibit a stereotype, she's then trashed because of it. We can't win). And then every time we have this conversation we have to explain to noobs what we actually mean, and it gets very frustrating.

(I'm partly just distracted by my extreme boggling that some people want Ophelia out of the picture - I mean, what? I had no idea that was going on. Bloody hell.)

The point you bring up about Frances in particular is really interesting - I'm trying to do a thought-experiment in my head and I feel pretty confident that the only thing that'd grate is her classism, but that grates with the guy version as well. I think you do a really good job of making him sympathetic to me despite, or possibly even because, of his casual classism. Having Beau gently mock him for it really does wonders for me.

For me in my own writing it's really hard for me to draw a line between where my own failure to accurately show how I see my characters ends and where the complete unwillingness to empathise with or understand a forthright and assertive female character on the part of a reader begins. I think I'm getting better at discerning where that line is for me, but I won't say the whole process isn't excruciatingly frustrating and for me a little upsetting.

TL;DR: As always, IBTP.

[pixelcurious.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic.

It is. And that's why I don't warm up to the badass female characters quite as much as those who are more well-rounded, complete characters, with good points and with flaws too. If they can be badass and flawed both, even better. Thelma and Louise comes to mind.

I do think we needed badass females (and continue to need them) to help us get past centuries of madonnas, whores, and doormats. Even the two-dimensional ones. Just the fact that they're still rare enough to be noticed says something.

Did you read this, about Uhura, which sarahtales linked to? If not, it's really worth a look too.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

rawles is one of my favorite people on the internet. She is INCREDIBLY intelligent and well spoken and I look up to her a great deal. She has a lot of great little bits of feminism and awesomesauce strewn about her journal.

This link gives you an idea:

My lady business and yours

[cameoflage.livejournal.com]

Random assemblance of thoughts:

a) I'll confess to not liking Ophelia as much as Ripp and Johnny, but I don't think her gender has much to do with that. (But I don't have a problem with her either, and J/R/O would implode if she disappeared.) Rather, I prefer characters whose personalities are obvious rather than subtle (not the same thing as the character themself being an outgoing sort, or being insufficiently nuanced). It's easy to describe Ripp, but with Ophelia I find myself having to fumble around for descriptions. I think this is because it takes a certain lack of subtlety to break through my barrier of passive obliviousness, to be honest, but... yeah.

b) I don't think I'd have a problem with She-Frances. At first I thought "hmmm, yeah, I do find whiny female characters more annoying than whiny male characters", but I don't think that's actually the case, on reflection. My reaction to whiny/emo/brooding/what-have-you characters has more to do with the precise nature of their emo -- some are genuinely tragic, others are just whiny and angsty -- than whether they're male or female.

c) I can generally avoid treating one sex better than the other or thinking of them in such a way, but there are certain character types that are nearly always men/women and that it's very strange to see filled by women/men. (For example: I can sorta picture a female Ripp, but she'd have to be a pretty masculine woman, by definition. A feminine she-Ripp wouldn't be compatible with the character type.)

d) I like pie.

[autumnparanoia.livejournal.com]

This.

But I prefer cake.

[(Anonymous)]

Interesting discussion. One of the things I like with Sims is that it's very gender neutral in a way really. There's the description for premade sims, of course, but they act the same when you play, right? So when it comes to sim-stories, I think I feel the same way about a character whether it's a male character or a female character. I haven't read all of S, HWC yet, but I like the women in that story so far (your writing helps, of course). And for what it's worth, I've never felt anymore sympathy towards Don than I feel towards the Caliente sisters.

(A genderswitched Pleasantview does sound interesting, though.)

Except for that, I guess I am guilty of judging female characters more. I think it's because I'm worried about them perpetuation stereotypes, like someone else mentioned. There's also the fact that female characters are often so sexualized, though. Harriet Potter would probably be safe from that, since HP is for kids, but turn a guy from a more mature story into a lady, and suddenly she's sexy, even if he weren't. Not that every female character has to be unattractive to be likeable, but it's as if a female character is put into a role, the role is quickly fetishized some way, and that annoys me.

(Sorry for the anonymous comment, but I have no lj for the moment.)

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

No need to apologize! ^_^ I'm glad you (and all the others who posted) weighed in with their take on it. That's what makes it an interesting discussion.

I like the point you've made about sims themselvs being fairly neutral. In Sms 2, there are very few things that are limited to one gender or the other (the obvious exceptions being makeup, facial hair, hair styles, and clothing options, though obviously the latter is for practical reasons like body shape, and there are hacks and cc to deal with the others).

I also completely agree with the idea (as was mentioned a number of times) that we judge female characters more harshly because we're wary of them representing all women, and perpetuating stereotypes that all women are that way. This is unfortunate, because we should view a character as a single person, and maybe they fall into stereotypes in some ways, or are traditioal to their gender, but they're an individual.

I see the need for the "kickass" female character, as some have mentioned, because we've gone so long without seeing that as an option for women characters, but I like the idea of a female being worthy of our attention in astory, even if they are a more traditional sort of gal, or a less flattering character type.

[poppyperson.livejournal.com]

I see what Sarah meens. I have to admit though Petra Pan would have been ausome!

[dinoshad2brains.livejournal.com]

While we're on the topic of Pleasantview: I think a sex-changed Brandi Broke would be drastically different as well. Instead of seeing her as a welfare mom failing to provide for her kids ("OMG, why'd she have so many?"), unattractive to suitors because of the baggage of three kids, he'd be a single dad ("Isn't it sweet he's taking care of all his kids after the tragic death of his wife?"), viewed as attractive to women for his sense of responsibility proved simply by not abandoning his young. Basically, female Brandi Broke is Danny Tanner from Full House.

Hmmm... On the one hand, I love a good ass-kicking female character, which is not the same as a strong female character, as others have pointed out. On the other hand, trying to write for one, and sometimes reading one, sometimes makes them seem contrived and self-consciously ass-kicking to me. It's a catch-22. I don't want men to be attracted to only wilting flower female characters, but I resent when kicking-ass becomes commodified as just another thing that makes a girl sexy.

Sometimes I even feel resentful of the idea of writing for a "female character", because I'm anti-gender binary, and it feels like "female" is part of her body, and not a part of her character. But in a world where everyone has been socialized according to gender, that's not practical either.

[dinoshad2brains.livejournal.com]

Forgot to say, I'm adding you, by the way. Because I love your stories, and you seem to think cool things.

Wee, first comment. A day late, but still.

[orange-prose.livejournal.com]

Hi! Basically, I agree with everything here. I think that female characters are judged more harshly, and especially by women, because we are so wary of them being stereotypical. If a white male does something bad, only he is blamed; when a female does it, all women must be like that, or a least we think that that was the intention.

The Sims, as a game, is great for this, in that there are no real game-play differences between male and female sims. There aren't any gender-based actions, or interactions.

Everyone else had so great examples, but the whole time I was thinking about Mary-Sue. I won't read about the Pleasants anymore, mostly because she was so often portrayed as a shrill cold harpy, no wonder Daniel stepped out on her! (smjoshsims' story is an exception to this rule.) Maybe I'm biased because I'd be a finance sim, but it always bothered me.

Strong Female Characters--Brandi Broke, Mary-Sue, Cassandra

[(Anonymous)]

There is a reversed Pleasantview available--Weivtnasaelp. When I played it, it turned out that Brandi was a whiney Alcoholic male, Mary-Sue was just a dull-as-dishwater breadwinner, and Cassandra was an immature wimp. Lilith and Angela weren't nearly as interesting. Don is smoking as a female--but still a slut, and of course, the consequence being lots of children