Discussion: Strong Female Characters
Aug. 26th, 2009 11:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
strangetomatoThis is mostly for will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).
In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.
The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)
Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.
ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.
Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.
will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.
The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)
Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.
ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.
Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.
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Date: 2009-08-26 11:54 pm (UTC)I think the shorthand of "strong female character" often gets misinterpreted to mean just literally physically strong, instead of what we really mean, which is well-rounded, deep, believable, human characters rather than a collage of stereotypes sticky-taped together (but then if a well-rounded character does exhibit a stereotype, she's then trashed because of it. We can't win). And then every time we have this conversation we have to explain to noobs what we actually mean, and it gets very frustrating.
(I'm partly just distracted by my extreme boggling that some people want Ophelia out of the picture - I mean, what? I had no idea that was going on. Bloody hell.)
The point you bring up about Frances in particular is really interesting - I'm trying to do a thought-experiment in my head and I feel pretty confident that the only thing that'd grate is her classism, but that grates with the guy version as well. I think you do a really good job of making him sympathetic to me despite, or possibly even because, of his casual classism. Having Beau gently mock him for it really does wonders for me.
For me in my own writing it's really hard for me to draw a line between where my own failure to accurately show how I see my characters ends and where the complete unwillingness to empathise with or understand a forthright and assertive female character on the part of a reader begins. I think I'm getting better at discerning where that line is for me, but I won't say the whole process isn't excruciatingly frustrating and for me a little upsetting.
TL;DR: As always, IBTP.