Discussion: Strong Female Characters

[strangetomato]

This is mostly for will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).

In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.

The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)

Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.

 

Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.

Comments

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

^_^

It makes me sad and bitter to know that Frances would be almost universally disliked, if not hated, if his name were a proper reflection of his gender. I'd like to think otherwise, but given the appalling level of vitriol you can see...I just don't. :(

Your more familiar with the Maxis premades than I am, but the impression I've gotten is that many of them do get strong armed into "traditional" situations with women playing second fiddle to their husbands/brothers/lovers/guy friends/whatever. Though, like you said the game is open ended enough, and the back stories tend to be vague enough, that you don't necessarily have to accept this. But still. I will say, in the two examples you listed:

I think a large part of the impression of Dina as a gold digger is powerfully perpetuated in game, with the suggestion that her and Nina's interest in Morty is "fiscal," her memory of a big insurance claim after Michael's death, her wanting to "make it big" without thinking. And I do think a lot of this would carry over if she were Nino instead, though the term gold digger might not be used - it doesn't seem to be used in association with men much at all. But I do think there would be a general impression that "Nino" was only marrying for money. People would probably be more sympathetic towards him, though, and I have to wonder what the opinion of Mortimer would be if he were Morticia? Somehow, I expect she would take a lot more blame for "stupidly" falling for Nino's tricks.

You have no idea how much I wish Don had been Donna instead. :< Against all logic, I love him, but I'd love her so much more. Chastity Gere comes close to being a girl!Don, I think, in that she's in a "successful" demanding career (business vs. medicine), and a description that suggests a casual approach to sex and serial heartbreaking. The nonexistence could be explained away as laziness on EAs part, in that the stories for the new hoods aren't nearly as well put together as the old ones. But that's still a problem.

I would love to write, or see written, stories about the gender-bent PView. It changes a lot of how the characters are perceived, but also how they're developed. Looking at Don again, he's intended, so it seems, to be strongly defined by his masculinity. If you accept that you're assuming a world where those gender roles exist, and at the least it makes it difficult to carry that same characterization and "manliness" over to a female character. Which begs the question, can you even have a Don-like character who's defined by her femininity instead?

My own personal preference is towards female characters who are badass, possibly "too" badass. This is pretty strongly driven by my love of fantasy/action/scifi genres, where the hero kicks ass and takes names. Every now and then I like to think the Big Damn Hero/BAMF can look like me (because I am not like those heroes at all). But it makes me physically angry when people when people say a woman can't be a good character if she's weak or sensitive. The theory I've seen behind that is that a female character is usually seen to represent EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER EVERYWHERE EVER, so if she's weak, she's perpetuating stereotypes. But at the same time, if she's a bitch she's also perpetuation stereotypes, and if she's too assertive she's a bitch. If she's not assertive enough she's weak. So she has to be perfect, but then she's boring.

I while back I actual saw a question on ffrantsrants asking if it's even possible to write a good female character. The answer is yes, so I'd think the more appropriate question would be "Is it possible to write a female character that will be perceived as 'good'?".

*rambles*

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

ohai thar wall-o-text. D:

I'm not really sorry, though. Sorry. D:

[ikichi.livejournal.com]

YES.(Sorry, I was re-reading my roommate's Y- the Last Man and went off on a "Goddammit WTF are you doing to 355?!" rant. It's like it's ok that she gets the brunt of the abuse because she's the badass secret agent or some shit. Of course, I also love how a comic with ONE GUY can be so dan misogynistic.)

[cameoflage.livejournal.com]

Elaborate plz? *likes Y (particularly because it's interesting to see female versions of always-male roles), but is kinda terminally oblivious*

[ikichi.livejournal.com]

I don't know...

I can readily admit that I get a bit (hah!) irrational when it comes to Y. Mostly over 355. I *hope* I'm not knee-jerking, but it did take me a week to figure out why the changed ending to Coraline bugged me so much.

Yes, women are human. Yes, this means we can be just as mean, stupid, racist, homophobic, insert character failure here as men can. Yes, the series takes place after a mass disaster which , if anything, is underplayed. Yes, everyone is scared and confused, with good reason.

I don't know if I'm being accurate when I say misogynist- I'm not terribly certain what it is that upsets me (aside from 355's treatment). I'm re-reading it, trying to figure it out. It's a bit odd/disconcerting how strong the male gaze is. Nothing really changed after the men died. There was never really the expected perspective shift- I don't mean a womyn-only utopia of bunnies and kittens. It's almost that, in the absence if men, the women became men. I don't know if it's just because it was written by a guy or what. Though Terry Moore and Mike Carey were able to create worlds with different kinds of women in different/evolving role with less head-desking for me. If I can figure out my problem with it more conclusively, I'll pm you.

[cameoflage.livejournal.com]

Huh. I can definitely see your point (and, yeah, the disaster part was underplayed, which is a shame, 'cause I like apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic stuff). However, I take the view that men and women are basically the same mentally*, at least to start off with (cultural conditioning being accountable for the differences in behaviour that do exist), so I didn't see/notice anything amiss.

...although, mind you, the fact that virtually all the characters grew up being conditioned in the same way as people in our world means that there should logically be some sort of difference anyways. But maybe the writers depicted there being no change because it seemed less sexist than the alternative? I dunno.

*One sex may be somewhat more likely to be good at one thing or have a certain personality trait, but I don't think there's a strong enough trend for it to be much more than a statistic curiosity.

[simnovoris.livejournal.com]

My own personal preference is towards female characters who are badass, possibly "too" badass. This is pretty strongly driven by my love of fantasy/action/scifi genres, where the hero kicks ass and takes names. Every now and then I like to think the Big Damn Hero/BAMF can look like me (because I am not like those heroes at all). But it makes me physically angry when people when people say a woman can't be a good character if she's weak or sensitive. The theory I've seen behind that is that a female character is usually seen to represent EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER EVERYWHERE EVER, so if she's weak, she's perpetuating stereotypes

This. Yes. I think men are accepted as individuals, as human beings first and foremost and men second, and thus male characters can be anything they want to be.

It's the same way with minority groups, just look at how homosexual characters were represented fifteen years ago. Still are to some extent. Always the incredibly trustworthy, loyal, sweet gay best friend who never had any sex ever and just stood there as a shoulder to cry on when the female lead needed to. (Melrose Place must be the perfect example of this.) Sometimes they died of AIDS, too. But of course the gay male can't be an asshole, that would mean all gay men are assholes.

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

I think men are accepted as individuals, as human beings first and foremost and men second, and thus male characters can be anything they want to be.

This really sums things up as I've seen them explained, and as I've perceived them. An able bodied/minded straight white man isn't seen as any of those things, not in life and not in fiction. He's seen as person and a character, and people and characters can, as you said, be anything. Anyone falling outside that often becomes something "else": a Gay Politician, a Black Surgeon, a Woman Cop, as opposed to just a politician, surgeon, or cop. In books, t.v., whatever, they end up being seen as Female Characters, Gay Characters, Black Characters, *insert relevant aggrieved group here* Characters. And that puts a lot of pressure on those people and character to be Right, instead of just human.

And I'm not really sure how to fix that.

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes, exactly. "Female" is a character trait, and as you said, so is black, gay, anything that falls outside the default white heterosexual male. Given any group in any mediocre standard fiction or movie, it will consist of something like 'the hero, the funny guy, the black guy and the woman'.

[cameoflage.livejournal.com]

A lot of the time, the funny guy is the black guy.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

I am going to marry this comment.

[docnerd.livejournal.com]

I have an issue with weak characters in general, whether they're male or female. Like with the Torchwood example, I like Gwen. She kicks ass and takes names. I vehemently dislike Rhys, particularly in the first season. Why? All he ever did was complain about Gwen's job and how she had no time for him, and she only ever worked, and he wanted kids and why wasn't she home more... Weak characters like that are only ever reactive, not proactive. They don't serve to move the story FORWARD, because they DON'T DO ANYTHING.

My best example of a weak, reactive character who does nothing but stall out the story is Sansa Stark from George R.R. Martin's series A Song of Ice and Fire. She takes no initiative at all to improve her situation, and waits for other people to make her decisions for her and tell her what to do. Every time I read one of her chapters, I hope she falls off a cliff and dies. She is utterly useless.

The best characters for me are strong with some sort of vulnerability. Karrin Murphy from Jim Butcher's Dresden Files. Gwen from Torchwood. Buffy. They're strong female characters, but they have qualities that make them human. They can be assertive, but they don't always need sheer power to save the day.