Again with the gender thing...

[strangetomato]

Gender is weird, huh?

I've noticed that people on lj (and other places online, I assume) tend to make something of an issue out of people getting their gender wrong. Someone made a secret about me at one point, saying that they always thought I was a guy, and I wonder how they thought I was going to react to that. I don't really care. If anything, I think it's nice to be anonymously without gender on the internet, and I usually don't select a gender when given the option in profiles and such. If people don't know, then you don't have any of the baggage that comes with it. It's the same reason I use SO instead of husband. Husband feels like such a loaded term to me.

I see people rushing to correct people when they get the gender of a simmer wrong, whether it's themselves or someone else. I notice, too, that it's always males. That's not surprising. It makes sense, given the predominantly female nature of the sims fandom (and fandom in general). We're going to assume y'all have ovaries unless we're told the difference. But why is it so important to correct people?

I was curious about it, so I thought I'd ask (rather than make a simsecret or some such nonsense). For those of you that have done it (and I know a number of people on my flist that have), why do you feel the need to inform people that you or someone else is a male? Note that I'm not here to pick a fight or anything of the sort. I'd just like to hear your side of it.

(Oh, and... for the record, fanseelamb is a female. :P This one seems to come up over and over again.)

And another thing...

I've always been one of those people that tries to be conscious of the gendered messages I give to children in the way I talk to them, like not telling girl's they're "pretty" while telling boys they're "smart" and crap like that (which people do ALL of the time, if you listen to them), but then I noticed I was treating Petey (my first male cat) in a distinctly different way than his big "sister," Suki. How much of that is personality, and how much of that is me projecting? (He's a total Momma's boy, by the way. :P) It's crazy how we slip into these things. The cats are both spayed/neutered, so it's not like they even have any sex-based behaviours to speak of. And they're cats! Do they even have gender?

What do you think? Have any thoughts or interesting stories to share?

Comments

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

...How do you treat someone like a girl (or boy) on the Internet? I mean, in a normal conversation? I'm honestly curious.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Knowing just changes the way I interact with people, sometimes. I mean, for example, if I know a person is a part of Group/Category X, then I'll tend to avoid making jokes that are unsympathetic to Group/Category X.

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

I have to say this.

If you think/know certain jokes and comments are going to hurt members of certain groups, you shouldn't saying those things at all. It's still offensive and wrong.

Like, for example, gay jokes are still harmful and offensive regardless of whether a queer person hears them or not.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Not those groups. I'm not stupid; I know that there are plenty of people who don't fit into them that will still take it upon themselves to be offended by tasteless jokes.

The groups and categories I make jokes out of (and I rarely make fun of groups, anyway; I tend to go for individuals) are ones that have chosen to be part of that, not people who don't have the choice.

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

I never called you stupid, and the point is whether or not somebody will be offended by a joke, but that some jokes are offensive regardless of whether or not anyone around to hear them finds them offensive. You said you try not say certain things around certain people because this joke or that comment would be unacceptable. My point is that if it's unacceptable, it's unacceptable whether anyone's around to hear it or not.

I'm curious to know what groups you would consider acceptable to mock, what you consider a "choice," and why it matters whether it's a choice or not.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Nor did I say you said so. (We could keep going on with that, but please, let's not!) My point in saying that was that, even though some jokes are bad no matter whom they're said to, I know not to make an absolutely tasteless attempt at a joke, around someone whom it would offend the most.

(If you'll give me a little more time to articulate, my answers to your curiosities will be here in a while. I'm not used to arguing something I'd consider so complex, so I'm not able to come up with an answer that quickly. My apologies.)

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Okay, I think I've had plenty of time to get my thoughts together by now.

-"what groups you would consider acceptable to mock"
As I said, only people of certain groups, and not people who make major choices that require a lot of consideration or are wrong, morally, ethically, etc. I wouldn't make fun of a woman who has had an abortion or a person who has committed murder, for their choices. Those are such serious issues that making light of them would be unacceptable.
You use "mock" when I originally said "make fun of". I wish I thought to say this before, because I only just saw that the two are the same thing. I didn't intend it that way. I interpreted "make fun of" literally. When I make a joke about someone, it is intended to be fun. It's intended to take an unimportant aspect of that person and turn it into something that everyone can laugh at, even the person being joked about. Good intentions don't make a tasteless joke any better, though.
An example of a ridiculously petty thing I'd bring up in a joke would be something like a person's preference for pink. Not that I'd actually joke about that specifically — because pink is certainly a fine color — but do you get the idea? It's about things that are clearly subject to one's opinion. If they realize that when I say "orange is better" that I'm expressing my opinion, they shouldn't be offended, because it ought not to have a bearing on their tastes.
Another thing that's probably more common in my online rants that poke fun at another person is my joking about their seeming lack of common sense. It's not because of their choice to lack common sense, since it's not always a choice (and if I think I have common sense but really don't, why would I try to develop any?) but because of their choice to show themselves as lacking it.

-"what you consider a 'choice'"
I mean, choices are choices. For example, you can choose to live within their means, as wide or narrow as that might be, or you can run yourself into debt. You can choose to hand over all your money or let the mugger shoot you in the head and still make off with all that money anyway. Just because one of the choices seems to be the more reasonable or obvious approach doesn't mean that it's a foregone conclusion.
Nowadays, there are all kinds of things for which it seemed that the only option was to accept one's fate. There are treatments for disease, disorders and the like. In my experience, I haven't found too many aspects of the human person that can't be changed by choice. A person doesn't have to let genetic or chemical conditions or predispositions control their actions.

-"why it matters whether it's a choice or not"
Again, I only make fun (by my preferred definition) when the choice being made is something subjective and insignificant. If the person knows the choice being made won't have a great impact, and that neither their choice nor mine can be considered right or wrong, what bearing should my opinion have upon them? They should feel free to make their own choices and not feel enslaved to my views, tastes, feelings, etc.

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to have time for a few days to give you a proper answer, but I do want you to know that I have a lot of problems with what you've said here. A few things, though.

First, "make fun of" and "mock" are not all that different; either way, you are taking some aspect of another person and raising it up to be laughed at. What seems light-hearted to you may not seem that way to them. What seems insignificant to you, may be very significant to them. It's ironic you chose a preference for pink as an insignificant thing, considering how tied up that color is in gender. Pink is very significant to a lot of people.

-"what you consider a 'choice'"

I'll try and break down my issues with all this later, but seriously? There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to start. You have a lot of privilege you need to start unpacking, and it shows here, and in most of your comments. The short answer, though, is: You do not get to determine what is or is not a "choice" for other, you have no authority to make that decision and no right to pass judgment (which is what you are doing), especially in relation to illness, mental or otherwise, and disability. Just, no. Stop that line of thought right there.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

To be honest, this isn't an easy conversation for me to have. Arguing about this and being put on the spot is making me uncomfortable, and I'm sure it's showing. I'm nervous and my answers are shaky, and not all that well put-together. But I suppose I should thank you, at least, for presenting the opportunity to address these topics. I come from an environment that doesn't give them much thought, but you're welcome to help me think of different things, and you're showing me how to reconsider my thoughts.

Like, I never thought that anyone would be deeply offended when being made fun of for liking pink. As a child, I'd admitted to liking pink, and it embarrassed me (because of gender and environment) but I never projected that onto other people. It was largely my choice, not theirs, so I didn't feel the need to be angry or offended. I would have been more angry at myself for giving them the information necessary to mock me. I enabled them.

For my "choice" definition, it goes back to my experience. It sounds like you're expecting I should have considered things I've never been asked to consider. I haven't been put into a lot of decisions about diseases and the like — which is probably the only way I'd consider myself "privileged."
(I hope you don't think I said it's okay to make fun of anyone with a disability. I never meant to say that, and if it looks like that, I would have clarified if I weren't as nervous about answering you.)

Can you clarify something? To me, it looks like you gave me a trick question. You asked me to define "choice" and then you said I can't determine what a choice is. I'm willing to assume you didn't mean anything like that, but I would like to hear what you have to say if you can put in other words.

[(Anonymous)]

I would have been more angry at myself for giving them the information necessary to mock me. I enabled them.

That's ridiculous. By that line of thought, people in the LGBTQ community shouldn't come out because that's enabling people to mock them. I realise you don't think that, but what you're saying logically implies something more serious.

What you said about choice was offensive to me, as someone struggling with mental illness. I go to therapy, which is a "choice", but things are still tough and, yeah, sometimes it's hard not to let my mind rule me.

The fact that you think I shouldn't let my mental illness "control my actions" shows that you are privileged. Honestly, I don't know that much about you, but I still think it's fucking ridiculous if you don't consider yourself privileged. You are a white American male, I'm assuming without any crippling illness, mental or otherwise. That is so much better than most people have it. It's the definition of privileged. The fact that you don't think you are is just even more annoying.

You're young, you have a lot to learn. Just try not to be so closed-minded.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

What you said about choice was offensive to me, as someone struggling with mental illness. I go to therapy, which is a "choice", but things are still tough and, yeah, sometimes it's hard not to let my mind rule me.

I know it's hard because I've got mental problems myself. To be honest, for me specifically, not knowing that I had any problems (I thought I was different but not for any medical reason; and I've never been formally diagnosed, but I do read up on these things and I'm fairly sure of some of these things.) and being treated like any other person, helped me to overcome it, a little bit. I don't know how I would be if I had been diagnosed and received therapy, so I can't speak about that, but if it works for you, that's good. I don't like to hear that anyone has those sorts of problems, so any way a person can find to overcome their struggles, I support.

The fact that you think I shouldn't let my mental illness "control my actions" shows that you are privileged. Honestly, I don't know that much about you, but I still think it's fucking ridiculous if you don't consider yourself privileged. You are a white American male, I'm assuming without any crippling illness, mental or otherwise. That is so much better than most people have it. It's the definition of privileged. The fact that you don't think you are is just even more annoying.

I've never thought of that as a really big privilege because I don't live in an environment where I see that as being made to be a big issue. Where I am, I don't see people being discriminated against based on those things. Maybe if you knew that, you wouldn't be making assumptions on my situation and reprimanding me for it.

You're young, you have a lot to learn. Just try not to be so closed-minded.

I know that.

I'm active-minded. I do receive new ideas and consider them. I don't think I've ever said to anyone that I would reject their idea without studying it carefully. I am willing to accept new things, but I do hold firm convictions about right and wrong and I do like to think out new ideas thoroughly before I throw out my old ones.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I'd just like to jump in here to say that recognizing that you have a position of privilege in the world at large is not necessarily accepting blame or being reprimanded for that (we're all born into our situations without much choice in the matter), but it's acknowledging that we do have things easier than others.

We're not always aware of our own privilege, but I think it's fair to say that (nearly) everyone in this thread is privileged in one way or another. I know I am. I think it's important to be aware of that so we can be grateful for the things we could easily take for granted, and to remind ourselves to consider the struggles of those who do not have it as easy as we do.

As for the mental illness, we don't have to get into any details, but if you weren't formally diagnosed, it's probably safe to say that you weren't as seriously affected by it as someone who was. That's not to say that you didn't go through a difficult time, but you can't really compare it to the experience of someone who required medical attention. It's just not the same.

And self-help does work for some people. I've been successful with it, to varying degrees, at different points in my life. But it's not enough for a lot of people.

Anyway, I appreciate your last statement. It's always smart to question your beliefs and evolve them over time. Bringing a new idea into your life doesn't always mean throwing out the old one completely. Often you can adapt your old worldview to the new information, making the whole picture a little clearer and less rigid.

You've been getting into this discussion pretty deeply, which I appreciate, but try not to worry about coming to a definite conclusion at the end. It's not a debate in the sense that someone is going to win the argument. This is complicated stuff, and we're far from having hard and fast answers. Our knowledge is always shifting and expanding. It's one of the reasons I find discussions like this so fascinating.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you very much, as always you articulate what I'm thinking so well.

This is a great discussion, thanks for posting this entry.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Like you say, since I hadn't thought of it before as that big a privilege, I never really thought to acknowledge it.

I guess if you're saying that there are people worse off than I am, that's pretty bad. I do go through difficult periods, but for the most part, I'm better off now. I think having been told "hey, you might have a problem" has helped me to teach myself not to do some of the same things I did before, but I still get a lot of recognizing that I could have handled something better, two seconds after my reaction. That's probably why I'm getting so wound up by the pressure of this discussion.

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly, if you were able to overcome your mental issues in any way without therapy, they're probably not that bad. I'm not saying you're lying, and certainly any sort of mental or emotional instability is difficult to deal with. But, trust me, as someone who goes to therapy and is on medication, life is still difficult. It's not a "choice" whether I function in society or not. Our culture is built so that a very narrow group of people succeed, and people like me aren't in that range. Like it or not, that's how it is, and I don't appreciate the inference that it's my choice whether or not I go about life like "normal" people do.

As strange_tomato said, I don't mean to imply that it's bad for you to be privileged, nor am I reprimanding you. I do think that you should recognise that you are. You're right, I don't know much about you, but what you have is better than many, many people. It's great that people aren't discriminated against for those things where you live, but that just means that your community in general is pretty privileged. Look at the world around you: there is poverty all over the place, broken families, and a staggering number of people suffer from mental disorders. Of course there are people better off, and maybe you're average relative to your community, but relative to the world at large you're very lucky. I just think you should appreciate what you have. :-)

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you or trying to be mean. I'm not. As someone suffering from diagnosed mental disorders, and as someone whose sexuality doesn't fit on the usual spectrum, this post (and especially your comments) struck a chord with me. I appreciate that this is new territory for you and not necessarily something you're completely comfortable with discussing - this is all just another perspective from someone in a different situation, something to think about.

Part 1/2

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

This conversation is a few days past its expiration date, but I wanted to give a proper response.

re: privilege. Strange and Anon. have already covered this a bit, but I want to reinforce it. You have privilege, a lot of privilege, because you are a straight White cis man who does not have, as far as you have said, any truly disabling physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. You're from the U.S., and if you're part of the middle/upper-middle class, you have even more privilege. Simply because of who you are and where you were born, you have access to certain advantages, rights, and freedoms that other people do not have, simply because of who they are and where they were born. You have privilege whether you want it or not; there is nothing you can do to not have the privilege you do, though you can try and counteract the benefits you receive because of it. It's more complicated than that, of course, but privilege is a core concept in discussions about oppression and social justice; you are going to need a decent understanding and acceptance of it if you want to engage in these conversations, or you are almost definitely going to find a lot of people getting very angry at you, and understandably so.

You should read this. It's a good place to start, I think. Follow the links, do some research. You accuse me of expecting you to know things you've never been exposed to, but that's not the point. Another thing you should keep in mind: these conversations are not about you. The point is, you hurt someone out of ignorance (myself, for one), and people are trying to help you correct that. Yes, it sucks to be caught with egg on your face - most people don't want to hurt others. I've been there, I've stupid shit out of my own biases and privilege, and here's what I can tell you about being called out: You are not being attacked, or condemned; nobody is accusing you of being a bad person, or of being stupid.

It's not about you.

Yes, because you have the privilege to ignore a lot of these issues, you've never given much thought to them; you didn't know. But you know now, and it's on you to do some of the leg work; don't expect me, or anyone, to hold your hand through things like this. Don't expect me, or anyone, to be patient and "nice" with you about this; you're not entitled.

Part 2/2 (lol character limits)

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

re: choice, I asked because there are Unfortunate Implications in your claim that you "only" make fun of people who "choose" to be that way; you are essentially claiming that you have the authority to determine whether something is a choice, and whether or not that choice is significant. You are essentially claiming that unless someone "can't help it," this or that aspect of who they are deserves to be mocked.

There are a lot of serious problems with that line of thought. For example, in many ways social class is considered a choice. By your logic, it's acceptable to crack jokes about the poor and homeless, because they could choose to change their situation. They could jobs! There are programs they could choose to take advantage of! And yet, that ignores ignores the reality of how incredibly difficult it can be, and is, to pull oneself out of poverty.

Or, to use your own bootstrap argument, disability and mental illness. You yourself made the incredibly ablist claim that people "choose" whether they let their illness control their lives. I do not think you understand how harmful - as in actual and legitimate damage - that sort of thinking causes. I do not believe you get how incredibly angry and hurt I feel, being someone who has lived her whole life with mental illness and learning disabilities, hearing people say that. The entire belief that illness, mental or otherwise, is a "choice" is steeped in ignorance of how difficult it can be to get treatment, how difficult it is to manage an illness even with treatment; it ignores the chronicity of such illnesses and disabilities, and furthermore suggests that there is something wrong with people who live with them, that there is something they need to change. And you imply you have some right to pass judgment on these issues. You do not. No one does, except the person living with them.

It's not that you claimed it's okay to make fun of people with disabilities - I assume you'd say such a bullshit thing as that - but that is what your logic implies, and your thoughts about this are hurtful and problematic besides. You may not have intended them to be so, but intent is not magical.

So, I asked what you consider a choice because I wanted you to think about how problematic and asinine your claim was. I am not trying to "trick" you, or "trap" you, or anything ridiculous like that.

One last thing, with regards to one of your comments down thread, that knowing someone's gender narrows down topics of conversation. It doesn't narrow things down as much as you might think. Menstruation, for example. Not all women menstruate, or even have ovaries. Not all people who menstruate are women. Not all women are comfortable talking about menstruation, and not all men are uncomfortable with it. That's just one example, but basically, the idea that knowing someone's gender will significantly influence what you can and can't talk about is wrong. Honestly, it's Othering to me; you're implying that there is still something fundamentally different about men and women, that women have anything in common beyond self-identifying as women. You're also reinforcing a gender binary, that there are Men and Women, and no one can ever be both or neither or anywhere in between. I don't like it.

I appreciate that it's difficult and uncomfortable when you start entering anti-oppression conversations; it was hard for me, and still is. These aren't easy or simple conversation. However, you do have a lot of shit you need to work through and unpack; it's hard to reply to your comments because there is just so much to cover, and it's exhausting. I know your young, but seriously.

So I'm not the least bit sorry for being angry, or for making you uncomfortable, but I do hope you keep having these discussions, and that you do the research and keep learning. It's hard, and it never really ends, but it's always worth it.

Re: Part 2/2 (lol character limits)

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

*you'd never say.

My soul for a paid account and edit function :(

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

Like women? That's what we were talking about, gender, not all these other mysterious groups. :)

I was really just wondering how one would treat someone like "a girl" online (or in real life, for that matter), because the only way I can possibly think of is general demeaning behaviour/harassment/lol pink.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

To be honest, once will_o_whisper took me on about those other groups, I forgot a little about the topic at hand before.

For me, it's just in the way I interact. I'll say the same thing to the person no matter their gender, but knowing might influence the way I phrase it.

And I don't make fun of women. Just a general rule, and not just because I'm surrounded by them in this community.

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

I know you don't. :) I was just wondering. I'm still not really seeing how it could make much difference in most contexts online, but then, I tend to hang out in pretty sensible communities and avoid the kind of places where it probably would make a difference.

My SO just reminded me of a case on MATY where some silly noob came in and was all 'I have a technical problem, please explain in simple terms because I'm a girl lol lol ^^~~~' and she was instantly attacked by a pack of people telling her to cut it the hell out. I guess that's the sort of crap you'll find in a lot of communities online, especially outside of The Sims ones.

[pixelcurious.livejournal.com]

I was really just wondering how one would treat someone like "a girl" online (or in real life, for that matter), because the only way I can possibly think of is general demeaning behaviour/harassment/lol pink.

I can't speak for any males, but it could be a courtesy/respect/chivalry thing. Like a male might tell a fellow male he'd kick his ass, but he wouldn't say that to a "lady". Whether that kind of gender-differentiated behavior falls under the category of demeaning is debatable (I may think it's demeaning to be treated differently because of my gender, but at the same time I want to be treated with respect -- I just think *everyone* should be treated with the same respect).

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

That is a good example. I don't know, I don't think that sort of "respect" actually comes from a good place, but it's a complicated topic. I think it's also different whether something like that ("I'll kick your ass") is said online or not and in what context. If it's playful and, for example, related to playing a game, there's no reason to make it gendered.

[pixelcurious.livejournal.com]

It is indeed complicated, and I agree, it doesn't come from a good place even if it's with good intentions. I think we're on the same page, so I won't go on about it. ^_^

I was mostly thinking of online interactions, and personal experience too -- of males who told other males, "You can't talk to Pixel like that, she's a lady." While I might appreciate that someone stuck up for me, there is so much cultural baggage there. O_o

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sounds like we're in agreement here. :)

Heheh, I think where I was really going was that, with the sort of things that are normally associated with being 'treated like a girl', I don't think I really want to be treated like a girl online, either. :P