strangetomato | Again with the gender thing...

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Again with the gender thing...

Gender is weird, huh?

I've noticed that people on lj (and other places online, I assume) tend to make something of an issue out of people getting their gender wrong. Someone made a secret about me at one point, saying that they always thought I was a guy, and I wonder how they thought I was going to react to that. I don't really care. If anything, I think it's nice to be anonymously without gender on the internet, and I usually don't select a gender when given the option in profiles and such. If people don't know, then you don't have any of the baggage that comes with it. It's the same reason I use SO instead of husband. Husband feels like such a loaded term to me.

I see people rushing to correct people when they get the gender of a simmer wrong, whether it's themselves or someone else. I notice, too, that it's always males. That's not surprising. It makes sense, given the predominantly female nature of the sims fandom (and fandom in general). We're going to assume y'all have ovaries unless we're told the difference. But why is it so important to correct people?

I was curious about it, so I thought I'd ask (rather than make a simsecret or some such nonsense). For those of you that have done it (and I know a number of people on my flist that have), why do you feel the need to inform people that you or someone else is a male? Note that I'm not here to pick a fight or anything of the sort. I'd just like to hear your side of it.

(Oh, and... for the record, fanseelamb is a female. :P This one seems to come up over and over again.)

And another thing...

I've always been one of those people that tries to be conscious of the gendered messages I give to children in the way I talk to them, like not telling girl's they're "pretty" while telling boys they're "smart" and crap like that (which people do ALL of the time, if you listen to them), but then I noticed I was treating Petey (my first male cat) in a distinctly different way than his big "sister," Suki. How much of that is personality, and how much of that is me projecting? (He's a total Momma's boy, by the way. :P) It's crazy how we slip into these things. The cats are both spayed/neutered, so it's not like they even have any sex-based behaviours to speak of. And they're cats! Do they even have gender?

What do you think? Have any thoughts or interesting stories to share?

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Yes, animals have a gender feeling, they do react differently, in feelings and behaviour. But I would not go with the old crap like 'girls need to play with dolls and boys are supposed to play with cars, not vice versa'. I really dislike this stereotypes.

In the interwebs or the MMORPG I 0play I'm often mistaken as a male, and if I tell closer friends/teammates that I'm a female they're surprised. Dunno why, maybe I lack the 'typical' female speech/actions? It's true, male players have a different speech and after a while you can say who's a male and of what age the one might be. I'm mostly right with my assumptions and so are my (mostly female) friends.

Does it matter?
No, I don't think it does, but sometimes it's fun to roll the typical gender-based jokes about the males in the chatrooms to the female friends.
Heh.

Altered cats do retain sex-based behavior. It is difficult for us humans not to anthropomorphize them. Cats don't act like male and female humans, they act like male and female *cats*; in my experience, their behaviors and interactions depend more upon number of cats, gender ratio, age and seniority than whether or not they are fertile or altered. I suspect the spaying/neutering just tones down the intensity of the behaviors.

I tell all cats they are pretty, and children, the few that I have opportunity to interact with, that they are smart or creative or do X or Y well. Now that you've made me think about it, I cannot remember ever remarking to a child on his or her looks. I hated it when people said anything about mine. Embarrassed. Self-conscious. And it was none of MY doing. I wanted to hear about aspects of myself I had some say in.

I've always seen the "quick to correct gender" thing (in the sims community) as more of a "I know so and so better than you" type thing then a "eww, don't call him a girl" thing. Simmers tend to have a "I knew it/did it first" hard on, so knowing playerX is a BOY would be a great "I'm a better simmer than you" trump.

And boys are rare, so the correcting person is extra cool (if you will) for having a rare BOY in their simmer friend collection (double rare if said boy is an active/popular simmer AND there name was not obvious in any way).

As for the secret thing, I can understand someone doing that. It's actually a perfect use of the secret format. Secret writer is a little worried they'll offend (so put on the secret cloak) but also feel silly for being worried. I wish there were more "real" secrets like that.

(huh, I never thought fanseelamb was a boy--I think "lamb" made me think "girl"--that and girl is always the safe bet when talking sim folks)

*snicker* Worrying about your cat children. I routinely tell my male cats they are pretty (versus handsome--I just don't like the word handsome for some reason). I like saying "you're a pretty boy!". Makes me feel like my cats are actually birds! (I can't say--without laughing--"what a smart boy/girl" to any of my cats. They just aren't that gifted in the brains department.)

I can only think of one time that I've personally corrected/told someone another's gender. And the reason I did it is mostly because... it's nice to be in the loop? Haha, IDK. Like, I know their real gender (or I at least know how they identify online whether or not they identify that same way in their real lives) and this other person isn't aware of it and so there's this knee jerk reaction to correct them for I know the ~truth~! Or something like that.

Generally I try not to think too hard about other people's gender identities. I wouldn't be offended if someone referred to me as male, but I probably would correct them, because I don't identify as male at all and I don't particularly want to be identified as male. But then, that's just me and I realize that a lot of other people are going to care more/less about being identified as one specific gender.

I know nothing about cats sooooooo... what everyone else said! :D

It is funny that in the sims community one tends to automatically assume someone is female but in the mmo games I play(ed) people generally assume the other players are male. And I have been mistaken as male on numerous occasions (more often outside the sims community, but it has happened in the sims community as well), whether or not I will correct someone on my own gender depends on how much I care at the moment (if it's someone I know I will spend more time talking to, I'm more likely to correct.. though I think I may have corrected people through a comment left somewhere before, I cannot recall). I've gone with gender neutral options in places that have you list your gender before but mostly to avoid the whole "omg it's a "girl" (woman, thank you very much) on the internet!" thing.

I will correct people on other people's gender on occasion but generally only in the chat I'm in, which are people I talk to on a daily basis. I've never really thought about the why much, it sort of becomes an automatic response. Maybe I'm projecting my own insecurities and fear of accidentally offending someone (by referring to them with the wrong pronoun) out on others. Or sharing the knowledge as beyondheroism said.

And it's not like I would really be all that offended if someone referred to me as "he". I haven't been in the past. (Well, I was sort of wavering between amused and mildly offended when someone took a look at my male character in one game and exclaimed "That is a woman?", but that was more over his usage of the word "that". It did kind of amuse me that he had such trouble wrapping his mind around the concept in the first place.)

As someone whose gender is constantly confused around here ... I don't know why I do it. I guess I've gotten into such a mode of correcting others about myself that I tend to do it with others as well. I also like passing on little pieces of information when it looks like others don't already know them, whether they actually make a difference, and sometimes gender qualifies.

As a male, I also wouldn't want to be treated like a girl. Regardless of whether it *should* happen, some people do treat me different based on that. Even though it's "just the Internet," I like it when I see others being treated "appropriately." I've never actually considered what that person considers appropriate and whether or not they mind others getting the facts wrong, but I've not been called out on it, either.

I don't imagine cats have a "gender" as in a socially constructed behaviour. :) I also think that any sex-related behaviour they display will be more in relation to other cats, not so much towards humans. Neutered male cats will still be territorial in a different way than (neutered) female cats, etc.

About the Internet Gender Correction syndrome... Yeah, I don't really get it either. I mean, when they're just sort of politely and offhandedly pointing out that 'oh, I'm a s/he', then okay, whatever, I can see that if you're going to be talking to someone you might want them to know that about you, even if I don't really think it's very important myself. But when people get all OFFENDED... or even mock offended. That's a huge WTF to me. OH NO, SOMEONE COULDN'T SEE HOW MASCULINE/FEMININE YOUR SCREENNAME IS. SOMEONE THOUGHT YOU WERE A BOY/GIRL ON THE INTERNET. RAGE!

I'm very non-fussed about other people's dangly or non-dangly bits. Most of the time you don't know anyway, I treat everyone the same regardless of gender.
Granted, I got on the internets quite a while before I got into the sims fandom, and while in here you can sort of gauge that most people will be female, out there you really don't have a clue. I guess that's where my stand on that comes from.

I attended a conference on gender this weekend so I hope I don't blather on too much.

What I find most fascinating about this phenomenon are two things:
1. That the males aren't extremely well-known as males in a female-dominated forum, and
2. That females seem eager to identify males as male

Put another way: females identify male Simmers as male more than male Simmers identify themselves as male.

What I mean by this is: females are, in general, more conscious of their own gender. The societal pressure tends to be stronger on females to perform in a certain capacity in order to meet societal norms. In the "Simmer's society" that you've established here, that pressure shifts to males precisely because, as you identified, it is a female-dominated forum. The 'social norm' in Simmerland is to be female.

To that effect, the majority -- females -- may note a male in Simmerland as noteworthy in the same way that a female physician in the 1950s was noteworthy. One might even look to the term "abnormal" to describe male simmers here (though it's a loaded term). So while gender is not such an important identifier in Simmerland for females, to be male and in Simmerland is unusual, and therefore women may be more inclined to make a note of the male presence.

Males in Simmerland are just here for the Sims. They probably don't see themselves as a "minority" per se because Simmers are an accepting bunch and a male Simmer is seen as interesting rather than, you know, weird or to be shunned.

*hopes that made sense to someone other than me*

re: kids and gender, I'm visiting my grandparents for my grandfather's funeral right now, and yesterday we had a bunch of cousins and aunts and uncles over after church. I was playing with my eight year old cousin, showing him some things online, talking about Mario and what not, when he politely informed me that girls don't know stuff about computers. That's a boy thing, but girls did know lots about dancing and hair. Fascinating tale, me, but that was the first thing I thought of seeing this post. That, and the fit my mother threw/it throwing over my refusal to wear a dress to this; I wore dress pants and tie to church, will be wearing them to the wake and funeral. She was furious because it wasnt' "nice" enough, by which she means not "feminine" enough.

So gender and gender presentation have been coming up a lot in my family, lately.

Anyway, I'm running out the door, but I do have a lot of thoughts on this. I will say, while I don't think gender ought to matter in the way it does, I do know it's important to some people to be referred to as the gender+sex they identify with, and that should be respected. It's also interesting to me that people assumed you were a guy; I always assume everybody on livejournal is a woman unless I know otherwise.

I have to admit, I don't really notice it when it happens in the Sims fandom. I can remember seeing instances where someone corrected an assumption, but I don't remember ever seeing a kerfuffle about it.

In mmo games like WoW I see it a lot. Of course it's hard to tell how offended they really are, but I've seen men appear to raise their hackles when it was assumed they're female (because of a female-sounding name, or they play a female character). I admit, I enjoy winding them up sometimes. >:D

On the other hand, I've rarely seen women get upset about individual occurrences of mistaken gender identity. They usually just correct it (or don't correct it) and move on. But I have definitely seen many long discussions on WoW forums about the general assumption that most or all players are male. Those get pretty hot! ^_^

I'm so glad you've brought this up. My perception of gender has always been pretty skewed, although I did rank it higher than maybe I should have done. Mind you, it turns out I do have a good reason - I'm transsexual. So gender etc. has been playing a big part in my life lately.

Since finding out about that, and especially with going through transition and meeting other trans-folks, my perception of gender has got even more - well, not even skewed, just *blurred*. I don't understand why men and women are expected to behave in certain ways. I don't get the whole "blue for boys and pink for girls" bit. People are people; why has society made gender so important that those of us in conflict have to go through so much shit in life?!

Interesting discussion!

People do confuse me for a guy all the time. They see the male avatar and male-centric uploads and assume I'm a gay dude. It doesn't offend me that they think so. It does kind of offend me when they wonder and debate the point rather than taking 2 seconds to look at my profile for the answer. But that has nothing to do with gender, I'm just offended by the general laziness and refusal to read that's so prominent in the sims fandom. :p

Anyhow. It's good to know someone's gender if you chat with them regularly. I mean, you wouldn't wanna start discussing menstrual cramps or hot guys with someone who you thought was a girlfriend only to discover they're a straight male! Awkward. That's pretty much the reason I like to know people's genders, and for them to know mine - just to know how to relate on certain topics. It's also kinda fun to guess and see if you're right... more to test your own assessment skills than actually caring what the answer is. It amuses me when I guess wrong, and I sometimes find it fascinating when I guess wrong and it turns out that person is gay/lesbian.

So, yeah. I wouldn't bother correcting a passing comment. But if it's someone who is a friend or who could become a friend, then it feels weird... maybe even a bit rude... to let them keep thinking I'm a guy when I'm not.

More going off your tangent than the meat of your message... :)

I think that cats do have gender differences. They're a little more closely linked to their wild roots than we are and male and female cats have very different roles in nature. Of course, we project a great deal on them because we like to anthropomorphize the animals we're closest too.

In general (and there are always exceptions) I've found male cats to be more social while female cats tend to be a bit more wary of people they don't know. Every female cat I've had has bonded with one or two people in the house and the rest are there when she wants something. The male cats, on the other hand, want attention from everyone they deem worthy, which is most people who are not scary small children with sticky hands.

But this really isn't what you're talking about... ;)

I've been mistaken for a guy online. Not in the sims fandom (because of my girly avatar) but in the Disney and Harry Potter fandoms, even though they also have a female majority. I think it's because I tend to gush over the hotness of females. But I also gush over the hotness of males just as much, and then everyone gets confused.

I really couldn't tell whether you were male or female when I first started reading, so I just didn't assign a gender. I found out when I first saw your self-sim.

Hi, my name's Amelia. I hope you dont mind, but I've been watching your journal for awhile since I got hooked on 'Strangetown, Here We Come'.

I think a lot about gender issues, partly because I've been mistaken for a guy more than once. Not online so far, ironically enough, but in real life. Or, if people dont think I'm a guy, they tend to think I'm a lesbian (which, to be fair, is half correct). I cant blame them, cause in a lot of stereotypical ways I'm sort of masculine in how I look and present myself, but I totally identify as a girl. I guess I think gender has two levels to it: the stereotypical level, and the actual identity level, and the two dont always line up. On the stereotypical level, I'm kind of masculine, but on the identity level, I'm totally feminine. I think the whole thing kind of operates on a continuum as well, much like sexual orientation: from female, to genderqueer, to male, plus a zillion things in between.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I hope what I said made sense.

On LJ, I tend to assume everyone is female and blonde until shown otherwise. I don't know why, but it's just this default setting I have, and I get surprised when I find out someone isn't blonde. Not in a "dumb blonde" type of way, either. I really don't know what's up with that. LJ has more female users than male (as shown on their stats page), and the sims is often considered a "girly" game, so it's not a far reach to expect that the majority of simmers on LJ will be female.

I guess I like to know things about people, so knowing if they're male or female just helps fill in the blanks. Like, I'm confused about Jenfold. I've seen many people say "LOL Jenfold is male, duh" and just as many say "LOL Jenfold is female, duh", that I kinda just want to know to know? I don't treat anyone differently based on that information, but it's just basic curiosity.

I suppose that in the LJ simmers world, the male player isn't as common, so maybe people just want them to know that? It's like how the majority of LJers are American. People tend to assume you're American unless you've told them otherwise. I'm Australian, and that means my world view and experiences are different, and I like people to know that I'm Australian, not American. Back in my earlier LJ days, I honestly used to be too gung ho about it, but I've definitely chilled there. I guess it's all just part of how we identify ourselves, and whether or not our sex or gender is a big part of that.

/ramble

I love talking about gender on the internets!

Although with the correcting thing, in my case, if I correct someone about gender it's for the same reason I'd correct them about anything else: What the person corrected said was factually incorrect, and if said person continues with this assumption, it might get embarrassing. XD I know if I had somebody's gender wrong, I'd feel very sheepish, even though there's no way of knowing. (This goes double if I'm talking directly to them.) I don't mind not knowing, if someone is deliberately obscure about it, but...well, my next point.

Contrary to the common internet meme that "There are no girls on the internet," I usually assume anyone I encounter online is a woman. (This is probably because my online experience is dominated by fandom and the feminist blogosphere.) If someone online isn't forthcoming about their gender identity, my mental picture of them is usually an androgyne leaning toward feminine. (Although I went back and forth on fanseelamb, because I thought she might have been a gay man and I'm not sure why?) I almost never take usernames into account unless they specifically denote gender somehow, and even then sometimes it's a curveball: I thought AlfredAskew was a guy, for about ten seconds before I read her MTS profile.

Also, I'm not following you officially, I just realized. Mind if I friend you?

Alright, so I don't have anything to tell you, but this: thank you so much for making this post! Gender is just one more feature, peoples' whole personalities can't be categorized into two categories like that, and the over-obsessing over gender is crazy in my view. But that's just me. :)

About the cat thing...I don't think that cats have genders because cats don't really have a social stigma (if that's even the right word) about genders, like what you were saying about girls being "pretty" and boys being "smart." People, how ever can treat cats differently, but that's really because people are people and see cats as a "boy" or "girl."

Online, I've been mistaken for male, and it's only bugged me when I was on the rag - usually because I had already explained I was in a bad mood and just wanted some quiet play time, when it came to MMORPGs.

I'm trying my damndest to not do 'stereotypical' gender behavior with my nephew, but I have no troubles with complimenting the neighborhood kids when they're being smart little bastards. Or darling morons - I've called them that too.

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