strangetomato | Again with the gender thing...

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Again with the gender thing...

Gender is weird, huh?

I've noticed that people on lj (and other places online, I assume) tend to make something of an issue out of people getting their gender wrong. Someone made a secret about me at one point, saying that they always thought I was a guy, and I wonder how they thought I was going to react to that. I don't really care. If anything, I think it's nice to be anonymously without gender on the internet, and I usually don't select a gender when given the option in profiles and such. If people don't know, then you don't have any of the baggage that comes with it. It's the same reason I use SO instead of husband. Husband feels like such a loaded term to me.

I see people rushing to correct people when they get the gender of a simmer wrong, whether it's themselves or someone else. I notice, too, that it's always males. That's not surprising. It makes sense, given the predominantly female nature of the sims fandom (and fandom in general). We're going to assume y'all have ovaries unless we're told the difference. But why is it so important to correct people?

I was curious about it, so I thought I'd ask (rather than make a simsecret or some such nonsense). For those of you that have done it (and I know a number of people on my flist that have), why do you feel the need to inform people that you or someone else is a male? Note that I'm not here to pick a fight or anything of the sort. I'd just like to hear your side of it.

(Oh, and... for the record, fanseelamb is a female. :P This one seems to come up over and over again.)

And another thing...

I've always been one of those people that tries to be conscious of the gendered messages I give to children in the way I talk to them, like not telling girl's they're "pretty" while telling boys they're "smart" and crap like that (which people do ALL of the time, if you listen to them), but then I noticed I was treating Petey (my first male cat) in a distinctly different way than his big "sister," Suki. How much of that is personality, and how much of that is me projecting? (He's a total Momma's boy, by the way. :P) It's crazy how we slip into these things. The cats are both spayed/neutered, so it's not like they even have any sex-based behaviours to speak of. And they're cats! Do they even have gender?

What do you think? Have any thoughts or interesting stories to share?

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Yes, animals have a gender feeling, they do react differently, in feelings and behaviour. But I would not go with the old crap like 'girls need to play with dolls and boys are supposed to play with cars, not vice versa'. I really dislike this stereotypes.

In the interwebs or the MMORPG I 0play I'm often mistaken as a male, and if I tell closer friends/teammates that I'm a female they're surprised. Dunno why, maybe I lack the 'typical' female speech/actions? It's true, male players have a different speech and after a while you can say who's a male and of what age the one might be. I'm mostly right with my assumptions and so are my (mostly female) friends.

Does it matter?
No, I don't think it does, but sometimes it's fun to roll the typical gender-based jokes about the males in the chatrooms to the female friends.
Heh.

Altered cats do retain sex-based behavior. It is difficult for us humans not to anthropomorphize them. Cats don't act like male and female humans, they act like male and female *cats*; in my experience, their behaviors and interactions depend more upon number of cats, gender ratio, age and seniority than whether or not they are fertile or altered. I suspect the spaying/neutering just tones down the intensity of the behaviors.

I tell all cats they are pretty, and children, the few that I have opportunity to interact with, that they are smart or creative or do X or Y well. Now that you've made me think about it, I cannot remember ever remarking to a child on his or her looks. I hated it when people said anything about mine. Embarrassed. Self-conscious. And it was none of MY doing. I wanted to hear about aspects of myself I had some say in.

I've always seen the "quick to correct gender" thing (in the sims community) as more of a "I know so and so better than you" type thing then a "eww, don't call him a girl" thing. Simmers tend to have a "I knew it/did it first" hard on, so knowing playerX is a BOY would be a great "I'm a better simmer than you" trump.

And boys are rare, so the correcting person is extra cool (if you will) for having a rare BOY in their simmer friend collection (double rare if said boy is an active/popular simmer AND there name was not obvious in any way).

As for the secret thing, I can understand someone doing that. It's actually a perfect use of the secret format. Secret writer is a little worried they'll offend (so put on the secret cloak) but also feel silly for being worried. I wish there were more "real" secrets like that.

(huh, I never thought fanseelamb was a boy--I think "lamb" made me think "girl"--that and girl is always the safe bet when talking sim folks)

*snicker* Worrying about your cat children. I routinely tell my male cats they are pretty (versus handsome--I just don't like the word handsome for some reason). I like saying "you're a pretty boy!". Makes me feel like my cats are actually birds! (I can't say--without laughing--"what a smart boy/girl" to any of my cats. They just aren't that gifted in the brains department.)

I can only think of one time that I've personally corrected/told someone another's gender. And the reason I did it is mostly because... it's nice to be in the loop? Haha, IDK. Like, I know their real gender (or I at least know how they identify online whether or not they identify that same way in their real lives) and this other person isn't aware of it and so there's this knee jerk reaction to correct them for I know the ~truth~! Or something like that.

Generally I try not to think too hard about other people's gender identities. I wouldn't be offended if someone referred to me as male, but I probably would correct them, because I don't identify as male at all and I don't particularly want to be identified as male. But then, that's just me and I realize that a lot of other people are going to care more/less about being identified as one specific gender.

I know nothing about cats sooooooo... what everyone else said! :D

It is funny that in the sims community one tends to automatically assume someone is female but in the mmo games I play(ed) people generally assume the other players are male. And I have been mistaken as male on numerous occasions (more often outside the sims community, but it has happened in the sims community as well), whether or not I will correct someone on my own gender depends on how much I care at the moment (if it's someone I know I will spend more time talking to, I'm more likely to correct.. though I think I may have corrected people through a comment left somewhere before, I cannot recall). I've gone with gender neutral options in places that have you list your gender before but mostly to avoid the whole "omg it's a "girl" (woman, thank you very much) on the internet!" thing.

I will correct people on other people's gender on occasion but generally only in the chat I'm in, which are people I talk to on a daily basis. I've never really thought about the why much, it sort of becomes an automatic response. Maybe I'm projecting my own insecurities and fear of accidentally offending someone (by referring to them with the wrong pronoun) out on others. Or sharing the knowledge as beyondheroism said.

And it's not like I would really be all that offended if someone referred to me as "he". I haven't been in the past. (Well, I was sort of wavering between amused and mildly offended when someone took a look at my male character in one game and exclaimed "That is a woman?", but that was more over his usage of the word "that". It did kind of amuse me that he had such trouble wrapping his mind around the concept in the first place.)

As someone whose gender is constantly confused around here ... I don't know why I do it. I guess I've gotten into such a mode of correcting others about myself that I tend to do it with others as well. I also like passing on little pieces of information when it looks like others don't already know them, whether they actually make a difference, and sometimes gender qualifies.

As a male, I also wouldn't want to be treated like a girl. Regardless of whether it *should* happen, some people do treat me different based on that. Even though it's "just the Internet," I like it when I see others being treated "appropriately." I've never actually considered what that person considers appropriate and whether or not they mind others getting the facts wrong, but I've not been called out on it, either.

I don't imagine cats have a "gender" as in a socially constructed behaviour. :) I also think that any sex-related behaviour they display will be more in relation to other cats, not so much towards humans. Neutered male cats will still be territorial in a different way than (neutered) female cats, etc.

About the Internet Gender Correction syndrome... Yeah, I don't really get it either. I mean, when they're just sort of politely and offhandedly pointing out that 'oh, I'm a s/he', then okay, whatever, I can see that if you're going to be talking to someone you might want them to know that about you, even if I don't really think it's very important myself. But when people get all OFFENDED... or even mock offended. That's a huge WTF to me. OH NO, SOMEONE COULDN'T SEE HOW MASCULINE/FEMININE YOUR SCREENNAME IS. SOMEONE THOUGHT YOU WERE A BOY/GIRL ON THE INTERNET. RAGE!

...How do you treat someone like a girl (or boy) on the Internet? I mean, in a normal conversation? I'm honestly curious.

Heheh, all the sim versions of the male True Blood characters (and various other hunky TV show men) were the main tipoff for me about fanseelamb. :) (They're all very well done, too.)

And I think you're right about the 'I knew it first'/'I know a RARE BOY' thing in the Sims community, especially (but not exclusively) among the younger members.

I'm very non-fussed about other people's dangly or non-dangly bits. Most of the time you don't know anyway, I treat everyone the same regardless of gender.
Granted, I got on the internets quite a while before I got into the sims fandom, and while in here you can sort of gauge that most people will be female, out there you really don't have a clue. I guess that's where my stand on that comes from.

How do people treat you differently when they think you're a girl then? Just curious.

Knowing just changes the way I interact with people, sometimes. I mean, for example, if I know a person is a part of Group/Category X, then I'll tend to avoid making jokes that are unsympathetic to Group/Category X.

I wish I could edit that comment now ... it doesn't happen quite as much anymore, with my reputation and a plethora of Simself icons at my disposal. I don't really know, but if they would, I don't imagine I'd like to find out :P

I attended a conference on gender this weekend so I hope I don't blather on too much.

What I find most fascinating about this phenomenon are two things:
1. That the males aren't extremely well-known as males in a female-dominated forum, and
2. That females seem eager to identify males as male

Put another way: females identify male Simmers as male more than male Simmers identify themselves as male.

What I mean by this is: females are, in general, more conscious of their own gender. The societal pressure tends to be stronger on females to perform in a certain capacity in order to meet societal norms. In the "Simmer's society" that you've established here, that pressure shifts to males precisely because, as you identified, it is a female-dominated forum. The 'social norm' in Simmerland is to be female.

To that effect, the majority -- females -- may note a male in Simmerland as noteworthy in the same way that a female physician in the 1950s was noteworthy. One might even look to the term "abnormal" to describe male simmers here (though it's a loaded term). So while gender is not such an important identifier in Simmerland for females, to be male and in Simmerland is unusual, and therefore women may be more inclined to make a note of the male presence.

Males in Simmerland are just here for the Sims. They probably don't see themselves as a "minority" per se because Simmers are an accepting bunch and a male Simmer is seen as interesting rather than, you know, weird or to be shunned.

*hopes that made sense to someone other than me*

Yeah, the Mulder sim (but no Scully) was a blip on the girl radar for me, too (re: fanseelamb).

Just the name fanseelamb sounds female -- both the "lamb" part, as you noted, and "fansee" -- not too many guys are going to dub themselves Fancy anything. And if they do, they're probably not the kind of men who mind a little gender confusion. *grin*

re: kids and gender, I'm visiting my grandparents for my grandfather's funeral right now, and yesterday we had a bunch of cousins and aunts and uncles over after church. I was playing with my eight year old cousin, showing him some things online, talking about Mario and what not, when he politely informed me that girls don't know stuff about computers. That's a boy thing, but girls did know lots about dancing and hair. Fascinating tale, me, but that was the first thing I thought of seeing this post. That, and the fit my mother threw/it throwing over my refusal to wear a dress to this; I wore dress pants and tie to church, will be wearing them to the wake and funeral. She was furious because it wasnt' "nice" enough, by which she means not "feminine" enough.

So gender and gender presentation have been coming up a lot in my family, lately.

Anyway, I'm running out the door, but I do have a lot of thoughts on this. I will say, while I don't think gender ought to matter in the way it does, I do know it's important to some people to be referred to as the gender+sex they identify with, and that should be respected. It's also interesting to me that people assumed you were a guy; I always assume everybody on livejournal is a woman unless I know otherwise.

I have to admit, I don't really notice it when it happens in the Sims fandom. I can remember seeing instances where someone corrected an assumption, but I don't remember ever seeing a kerfuffle about it.

In mmo games like WoW I see it a lot. Of course it's hard to tell how offended they really are, but I've seen men appear to raise their hackles when it was assumed they're female (because of a female-sounding name, or they play a female character). I admit, I enjoy winding them up sometimes. >:D

On the other hand, I've rarely seen women get upset about individual occurrences of mistaken gender identity. They usually just correct it (or don't correct it) and move on. But I have definitely seen many long discussions on WoW forums about the general assumption that most or all players are male. Those get pretty hot! ^_^

I have to say this.

If you think/know certain jokes and comments are going to hurt members of certain groups, you shouldn't saying those things at all. It's still offensive and wrong.

Like, for example, gay jokes are still harmful and offensive regardless of whether a queer person hears them or not.

Not those groups. I'm not stupid; I know that there are plenty of people who don't fit into them that will still take it upon themselves to be offended by tasteless jokes.

The groups and categories I make jokes out of (and I rarely make fun of groups, anyway; I tend to go for individuals) are ones that have chosen to be part of that, not people who don't have the choice.

And they're probably going to like Mulder more than Scully.

I friend of mine takes advantage of both the conscious assumption that female WoW players are rare and the unconscious assumption that if you're playing a female character you're probably female. Those are contradicting assumptions, which makes for some weird interactions.The idea that women in WoW are rare makes them a "hot commodity" for some of the more socially awkward boys, and when those boys encounter a female character they're often very intent on treating the player as a female until proven otherwise, just in case.

My friend plays his female characters as female (saying typically girlish things like "That's cute!" or having an adorable pet follow him around, for example) and some guys will just fall all over themselves to give him money and take him on runs. As someone who typically tries to downplay my female-ness in most situations, I find that kind of manipulation to be very weird.

That made a lot of sense, actually. It's perfectly natural to be curious about someone else's gender, especially if you're interacting with them in a situation that's typically dominated by one gender or another, even if it isn't actually important and even if it isn't actually any of your business. Humans are naturally curious about other humans, especially if they happen to be different from us. It's just that problems arise when people make too big of a deal about those differences.

I never called you stupid, and the point is whether or not somebody will be offended by a joke, but that some jokes are offensive regardless of whether or not anyone around to hear them finds them offensive. You said you try not say certain things around certain people because this joke or that comment would be unacceptable. My point is that if it's unacceptable, it's unacceptable whether anyone's around to hear it or not.

I'm curious to know what groups you would consider acceptable to mock, what you consider a "choice," and why it matters whether it's a choice or not.

There is a Scully sim, actually, but she's not featured so often. :) And the Mulder one is a lot more accurate, very impressively so.

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Again with the gender thing...

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