strangetomato: (jill)
Strange Tomato ([personal profile] strangetomato) wrote2009-08-26 11:02 am
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Discussion: Strong Female Characters

This is mostly for [personal profile] will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for [livejournal.com profile] beyondheroism__ and [livejournal.com profile] smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by [livejournal.com profile] sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).

In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.

The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)

Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.

 

Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.

[identity profile] docnerd.livejournal.com 2009-08-26 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I have an issue with weak characters in general, whether they're male or female. Like with the Torchwood example, I like Gwen. She kicks ass and takes names. I vehemently dislike Rhys, particularly in the first season. Why? All he ever did was complain about Gwen's job and how she had no time for him, and she only ever worked, and he wanted kids and why wasn't she home more... Weak characters like that are only ever reactive, not proactive. They don't serve to move the story FORWARD, because they DON'T DO ANYTHING.

My best example of a weak, reactive character who does nothing but stall out the story is Sansa Stark from George R.R. Martin's series A Song of Ice and Fire. She takes no initiative at all to improve her situation, and waits for other people to make her decisions for her and tell her what to do. Every time I read one of her chapters, I hope she falls off a cliff and dies. She is utterly useless.

The best characters for me are strong with some sort of vulnerability. Karrin Murphy from Jim Butcher's Dresden Files. Gwen from Torchwood. Buffy. They're strong female characters, but they have qualities that make them human. They can be assertive, but they don't always need sheer power to save the day.

[identity profile] simnovoris.livejournal.com 2009-08-26 07:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I love the sisters as well! In my own Sims universe I see them as kind of awesome and far from the stereotypes they're meant to be.

[identity profile] smjosh1218.livejournal.com 2009-08-26 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I meant to reply to your reply, but I forgot. Basically, I agree with you completely. That was the turning point for me as well, I just never realized it. They turned Maryann into a batshit crazy person who cuts out people's hearts and eats them. DNW. her philosophies were different, and that's what I liked about her.

I totally agree with you on the growth thing as well. I want Tara to realize that it's okay to be happy, and it's okay to be sad. Tara is very extreme for me, I think- she's either ALWAYS angry or ALWAYS sad or ALWAYS this, she needs to learn to control herself. I do still like her a bit though, even though she's lost her edge.

[identity profile] sims-gone.livejournal.com 2009-08-26 08:58 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a really interesting discussion! I wonder if the backlash against female characters by female audiences has to do with the fact that we can identify with them and put ourselves in their places. Like, when they make a decision that we disagree with, we think less of them because if _we_ were in that position we would do so much better. When it's a male character, we're less likely to put ourselves in their shoes and tend to more just watch and see what they do and be entertained. Especially if the character has sex appeal to us, we are much more forgiving!

In my experience, men tend to be much harder on male characters than women are. They will complain about the character being whiny or emo and express disbelief that they end up with the girl.

I don't doubt that sexism plays a role in this phenomenon, too (assertive female characters are pretty universally read as "bitches"), but I think part of it is a funny quirk of human nature.

[identity profile] pixelcurious.livejournal.com 2009-08-26 09:55 pm (UTC)(link)
But if I recall correctly (I didn't read a lot of Archie comics) Betty and Veronica WEREN'T cool with sharing. They were jealous; they threw fits; they got in hair-yanking fights.

But yeah, Archie never got any hate, even though he knew Ronnie seethed when he took Betty to the soda shop, and Betty would probably cry if he danced with Ronnie and not her... the "comedy" was all about the girls over-reacting, and there were no consequences for him that I remember.

[identity profile] tyralily.livejournal.com 2009-08-26 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Wait, people hate Gwen. That is just wrong.

But this thing just reminds me of one of my mom's characters (She's a writer). Same character that one a kick-ass heroine contest.
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[identity profile] crushthecamera.livejournal.com 2009-08-26 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm trying to think of something actually useful to say but I'm quite brainfoggy today, so: I like this post and think you and the resulting discussion are extremely nifty.

I think the shorthand of "strong female character" often gets misinterpreted to mean just literally physically strong, instead of what we really mean, which is well-rounded, deep, believable, human characters rather than a collage of stereotypes sticky-taped together (but then if a well-rounded character does exhibit a stereotype, she's then trashed because of it. We can't win). And then every time we have this conversation we have to explain to noobs what we actually mean, and it gets very frustrating.

(I'm partly just distracted by my extreme boggling that some people want Ophelia out of the picture - I mean, what? I had no idea that was going on. Bloody hell.)

The point you bring up about Frances in particular is really interesting - I'm trying to do a thought-experiment in my head and I feel pretty confident that the only thing that'd grate is her classism, but that grates with the guy version as well. I think you do a really good job of making him sympathetic to me despite, or possibly even because, of his casual classism. Having Beau gently mock him for it really does wonders for me.

For me in my own writing it's really hard for me to draw a line between where my own failure to accurately show how I see my characters ends and where the complete unwillingness to empathise with or understand a forthright and assertive female character on the part of a reader begins. I think I'm getting better at discerning where that line is for me, but I won't say the whole process isn't excruciatingly frustrating and for me a little upsetting.

TL;DR: As always, IBTP.

[identity profile] pixelcurious.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic.

It is. And that's why I don't warm up to the badass female characters quite as much as those who are more well-rounded, complete characters, with good points and with flaws too. If they can be badass and flawed both, even better. Thelma and Louise comes to mind.

I do think we needed badass females (and continue to need them) to help us get past centuries of madonnas, whores, and doormats. Even the two-dimensional ones. Just the fact that they're still rare enough to be noticed says something.

Did you read this, about Uhura, which [livejournal.com profile] sarahtales linked to? If not, it's really worth a look too.

[identity profile] leskuh.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 12:52 am (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] rawles is one of my favorite people on the internet. She is INCREDIBLY intelligent and well spoken and I look up to her a great deal. She has a lot of great little bits of feminism and awesomesauce strewn about her journal.

This link gives you an idea:

My lady business and yours

(Anonymous) 2009-08-27 05:30 am (UTC)(link)
What the hell? Why would you hate Harry?
Because he had flaws? Seriously? He's one of the least selfish characters I've ever read about (it's not he's fault he was protected by his loved ones, he was just a kid, for Christ's sakes!)
I don't know what you mean by 'annoying' (that's incredibly vague, and I disagree), he wasn't EMO (how depressed would you be if you were in his situation?) and, uh, YEAH he was impulsive, that was part of his character! You can not like him if you want, but I absolutely hate it when people bash Harry, because not a single one of them would be able to handle his life, and that's a fact.
He wasn't loved by all. He had close friends whom he earned the trust and respect of, and he had admirers because he was seen as a messiah -- but half of those people had no idea who he really was or what he was going through. He also had a shit-load of enemies.
I seriously have to wonder if you even read the books, because that's just a really stupid generalization to make about a character.

[identity profile] cameoflage.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 09:13 am (UTC)(link)
Elaborate plz? *likes Y (particularly because it's interesting to see female versions of always-male roles), but is kinda terminally oblivious*

[identity profile] cameoflage.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 09:15 am (UTC)(link)
A lot of the time, the funny guy is the black guy.

[identity profile] cameoflage.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 09:59 am (UTC)(link)
Random assemblance of thoughts:

a) I'll confess to not liking Ophelia as much as Ripp and Johnny, but I don't think her gender has much to do with that. (But I don't have a problem with her either, and J/R/O would implode if she disappeared.) Rather, I prefer characters whose personalities are obvious rather than subtle (not the same thing as the character themself being an outgoing sort, or being insufficiently nuanced). It's easy to describe Ripp, but with Ophelia I find myself having to fumble around for descriptions. I think this is because it takes a certain lack of subtlety to break through my barrier of passive obliviousness, to be honest, but... yeah.

b) I don't think I'd have a problem with She-Frances. At first I thought "hmmm, yeah, I do find whiny female characters more annoying than whiny male characters", but I don't think that's actually the case, on reflection. My reaction to whiny/emo/brooding/what-have-you characters has more to do with the precise nature of their emo -- some are genuinely tragic, others are just whiny and angsty -- than whether they're male or female.

c) I can generally avoid treating one sex better than the other or thinking of them in such a way, but there are certain character types that are nearly always men/women and that it's very strange to see filled by women/men. (For example: I can sorta picture a female Ripp, but she'd have to be a pretty masculine woman, by definition. A feminine she-Ripp wouldn't be compatible with the character type.)

d) I like pie.

[identity profile] leskuh.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 12:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Dude.

Josh is entitled to his own opinions of Harry. Really, it's cool. You don't have to jump to the defense of Harry Potter. I'm sure he'll be okay.
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[identity profile] strange-tomato.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 12:25 pm (UTC)(link)
We're not exactly here to argue about the merits of Harry Potter's character, so I'd prefer if this didn't turn into a giant flame war on the topic.

You're both welcome to your opinions, right? I'm sure it's not mandatory that everyone likes Harry Potter (even if they are fans of the series), though it seems like you take personal offense at this for some reason. I can understand this, when you're very fond of a character (and it's worse if you're writing said character), but you have to accept that not everyone will like the same characters. It's like when we're talking about people disliking Ophelia. Obviously I would prefer it if they liked her, since I do, but they're still more than welcome to that opinion.

I happen to agree with Josh's thought (which I've definitely heard elsewhere too) that Harry was basically a Mary-Sure, and I think it would be way more obvious to way more people if he had been a female. That said, he's a certain character type, and they're quite often exactly like that. I didn't dislike him for it, but I also thought he was far from the most interesting character in the series.

This is the part where we throw our hands up and say "To each their own."

(Anonymous) 2009-08-27 12:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting discussion. One of the things I like with Sims is that it's very gender neutral in a way really. There's the description for premade sims, of course, but they act the same when you play, right? So when it comes to sim-stories, I think I feel the same way about a character whether it's a male character or a female character. I haven't read all of S, HWC yet, but I like the women in that story so far (your writing helps, of course). And for what it's worth, I've never felt anymore sympathy towards Don than I feel towards the Caliente sisters.

(A genderswitched Pleasantview does sound interesting, though.)

Except for that, I guess I am guilty of judging female characters more. I think it's because I'm worried about them perpetuation stereotypes, like someone else mentioned. There's also the fact that female characters are often so sexualized, though. Harriet Potter would probably be safe from that, since HP is for kids, but turn a guy from a more mature story into a lady, and suddenly she's sexy, even if he weren't. Not that every female character has to be unattractive to be likeable, but it's as if a female character is put into a role, the role is quickly fetishized some way, and that annoys me.

(Sorry for the anonymous comment, but I have no lj for the moment.)
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[identity profile] strange-tomato.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 12:49 pm (UTC)(link)
No need to apologize! ^_^ I'm glad you (and all the others who posted) weighed in with their take on it. That's what makes it an interesting discussion.

I like the point you've made about sims themselvs being fairly neutral. In Sms 2, there are very few things that are limited to one gender or the other (the obvious exceptions being makeup, facial hair, hair styles, and clothing options, though obviously the latter is for practical reasons like body shape, and there are hacks and cc to deal with the others).

I also completely agree with the idea (as was mentioned a number of times) that we judge female characters more harshly because we're wary of them representing all women, and perpetuating stereotypes that all women are that way. This is unfortunate, because we should view a character as a single person, and maybe they fall into stereotypes in some ways, or are traditioal to their gender, but they're an individual.

I see the need for the "kickass" female character, as some have mentioned, because we've gone so long without seeing that as an option for women characters, but I like the idea of a female being worthy of our attention in astory, even if they are a more traditional sort of gal, or a less flattering character type.
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[identity profile] strange-tomato.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 01:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm certainly very interested in seeing all sorts of different women in stories. That's one of the reasons I love the novels of Margaret Laurence. All of her protagonists are female and both strong and weak in their own way. She also covers some very "stereotypical" types, like the housewife and the spinster, and gives them an honest, sympathetic portrayal, while not shying away from the ugly parts. Basically, she rocks.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, since I'll be showing a certain well-known womanly type in my chapter about Jaxy Rai (which I'm working on now).

Also, I'm not really here to defend Ophelia (which is why I didn't bring her up on my own, though I appreciate your defense of her). People are more than welcome to dislike her, and I can certainly see why people would dislike her. "Depressive" and "fearful/worrisome" are not traits that people are generally drawn to, and I wanted to stay true to her Maxis backstory and also explore the depression side of things (for a number of reasons, it's important to me that she not bounce back and "get over it" so easily). Paired with the fact that her positive traits are decidedly feminine and passive (calm, kind, and nurturing come to mind), then it makes sense that she isn't going to appeal to everyone.

That said, I do think she's a pretty good example of what we're talking about.

One more point: Circe will most certainly not crack because she has "too much" power. I am sure she would laugh at the concept of ever having too much power or money. If she has a downfall, it won't be that.
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[identity profile] strange-tomato.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 01:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, Betty and Veronica were both of those things. They were competitive and jealous of each other, but they were also best friends through it all (which is often more significant than the whole Archie thing throughout the comics, in my opinion) and they are both completely aware of the fact that Archie is dating them both, and they're (sort of) okay with that.

To go back to comparing them to Johnny and Ripp, they're okay but they're not okay (and I think the comparison holds up pretty well).

Archie, though, was never considered greedy or selfish for having two girlfriends, which is something that would probably have been more likely to happen if he were a girl. Archie could do no wrong.

(Anonymous) 2009-08-27 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
True. It's nice to see a female character kick ass, but not every character needs to do that. Heck, I often like wussy male characters (although if they are too spineless, that can be annoying), so it is unfair of me to be harsh on a wussy female character.

[identity profile] will-o-whisper.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
pst, men can wear all the makeup. There are even a couple premades who start the game with it. ;p

[identity profile] autumnparanoia.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Hang on a minute.

"she's bitch and a whore"?

Whore? When she co-stars with JACK? Please. And yet he is sexy and fangirled over, while Gwen is simply called a whore, despite the face that he's slept with pretty much EVERYONE and she tries to remain faithful to her fiance?

Human logic makes my head hurt.

[identity profile] autumnparanoia.livejournal.com 2009-08-27 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
This.

But I prefer cake.

[identity profile] cameoflage.livejournal.com 2009-08-28 04:17 am (UTC)(link)
Y'know, I prefer cake as well... it's just that "pie" is a funnier word. (And you can't make jokes about cake without callbacks to Portal, which is a plus for some and a minus for others.)

[identity profile] poppyperson.livejournal.com 2009-08-28 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I see what Sarah meens. I have to admit though Petra Pan would have been ausome!

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