strangetomato | Again with the gender thing...

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Again with the gender thing...

Gender is weird, huh?

I've noticed that people on lj (and other places online, I assume) tend to make something of an issue out of people getting their gender wrong. Someone made a secret about me at one point, saying that they always thought I was a guy, and I wonder how they thought I was going to react to that. I don't really care. If anything, I think it's nice to be anonymously without gender on the internet, and I usually don't select a gender when given the option in profiles and such. If people don't know, then you don't have any of the baggage that comes with it. It's the same reason I use SO instead of husband. Husband feels like such a loaded term to me.

I see people rushing to correct people when they get the gender of a simmer wrong, whether it's themselves or someone else. I notice, too, that it's always males. That's not surprising. It makes sense, given the predominantly female nature of the sims fandom (and fandom in general). We're going to assume y'all have ovaries unless we're told the difference. But why is it so important to correct people?

I was curious about it, so I thought I'd ask (rather than make a simsecret or some such nonsense). For those of you that have done it (and I know a number of people on my flist that have), why do you feel the need to inform people that you or someone else is a male? Note that I'm not here to pick a fight or anything of the sort. I'd just like to hear your side of it.

(Oh, and... for the record, fanseelamb is a female. :P This one seems to come up over and over again.)

And another thing...

I've always been one of those people that tries to be conscious of the gendered messages I give to children in the way I talk to them, like not telling girl's they're "pretty" while telling boys they're "smart" and crap like that (which people do ALL of the time, if you listen to them), but then I noticed I was treating Petey (my first male cat) in a distinctly different way than his big "sister," Suki. How much of that is personality, and how much of that is me projecting? (He's a total Momma's boy, by the way. :P) It's crazy how we slip into these things. The cats are both spayed/neutered, so it's not like they even have any sex-based behaviours to speak of. And they're cats! Do they even have gender?

What do you think? Have any thoughts or interesting stories to share?

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To be honest, this isn't an easy conversation for me to have. Arguing about this and being put on the spot is making me uncomfortable, and I'm sure it's showing. I'm nervous and my answers are shaky, and not all that well put-together. But I suppose I should thank you, at least, for presenting the opportunity to address these topics. I come from an environment that doesn't give them much thought, but you're welcome to help me think of different things, and you're showing me how to reconsider my thoughts.

Like, I never thought that anyone would be deeply offended when being made fun of for liking pink. As a child, I'd admitted to liking pink, and it embarrassed me (because of gender and environment) but I never projected that onto other people. It was largely my choice, not theirs, so I didn't feel the need to be angry or offended. I would have been more angry at myself for giving them the information necessary to mock me. I enabled them.

For my "choice" definition, it goes back to my experience. It sounds like you're expecting I should have considered things I've never been asked to consider. I haven't been put into a lot of decisions about diseases and the like — which is probably the only way I'd consider myself "privileged."
(I hope you don't think I said it's okay to make fun of anyone with a disability. I never meant to say that, and if it looks like that, I would have clarified if I weren't as nervous about answering you.)

Can you clarify something? To me, it looks like you gave me a trick question. You asked me to define "choice" and then you said I can't determine what a choice is. I'm willing to assume you didn't mean anything like that, but I would like to hear what you have to say if you can put in other words.

I would have been more angry at myself for giving them the information necessary to mock me. I enabled them.

That's ridiculous. By that line of thought, people in the LGBTQ community shouldn't come out because that's enabling people to mock them. I realise you don't think that, but what you're saying logically implies something more serious.

What you said about choice was offensive to me, as someone struggling with mental illness. I go to therapy, which is a "choice", but things are still tough and, yeah, sometimes it's hard not to let my mind rule me.

The fact that you think I shouldn't let my mental illness "control my actions" shows that you are privileged. Honestly, I don't know that much about you, but I still think it's fucking ridiculous if you don't consider yourself privileged. You are a white American male, I'm assuming without any crippling illness, mental or otherwise. That is so much better than most people have it. It's the definition of privileged. The fact that you don't think you are is just even more annoying.

You're young, you have a lot to learn. Just try not to be so closed-minded.

What you said about choice was offensive to me, as someone struggling with mental illness. I go to therapy, which is a "choice", but things are still tough and, yeah, sometimes it's hard not to let my mind rule me.

I know it's hard because I've got mental problems myself. To be honest, for me specifically, not knowing that I had any problems (I thought I was different but not for any medical reason; and I've never been formally diagnosed, but I do read up on these things and I'm fairly sure of some of these things.) and being treated like any other person, helped me to overcome it, a little bit. I don't know how I would be if I had been diagnosed and received therapy, so I can't speak about that, but if it works for you, that's good. I don't like to hear that anyone has those sorts of problems, so any way a person can find to overcome their struggles, I support.

The fact that you think I shouldn't let my mental illness "control my actions" shows that you are privileged. Honestly, I don't know that much about you, but I still think it's fucking ridiculous if you don't consider yourself privileged. You are a white American male, I'm assuming without any crippling illness, mental or otherwise. That is so much better than most people have it. It's the definition of privileged. The fact that you don't think you are is just even more annoying.

I've never thought of that as a really big privilege because I don't live in an environment where I see that as being made to be a big issue. Where I am, I don't see people being discriminated against based on those things. Maybe if you knew that, you wouldn't be making assumptions on my situation and reprimanding me for it.

You're young, you have a lot to learn. Just try not to be so closed-minded.

I know that.

I'm active-minded. I do receive new ideas and consider them. I don't think I've ever said to anyone that I would reject their idea without studying it carefully. I am willing to accept new things, but I do hold firm convictions about right and wrong and I do like to think out new ideas thoroughly before I throw out my old ones.

I'd just like to jump in here to say that recognizing that you have a position of privilege in the world at large is not necessarily accepting blame or being reprimanded for that (we're all born into our situations without much choice in the matter), but it's acknowledging that we do have things easier than others.

We're not always aware of our own privilege, but I think it's fair to say that (nearly) everyone in this thread is privileged in one way or another. I know I am. I think it's important to be aware of that so we can be grateful for the things we could easily take for granted, and to remind ourselves to consider the struggles of those who do not have it as easy as we do.

As for the mental illness, we don't have to get into any details, but if you weren't formally diagnosed, it's probably safe to say that you weren't as seriously affected by it as someone who was. That's not to say that you didn't go through a difficult time, but you can't really compare it to the experience of someone who required medical attention. It's just not the same.

And self-help does work for some people. I've been successful with it, to varying degrees, at different points in my life. But it's not enough for a lot of people.

Anyway, I appreciate your last statement. It's always smart to question your beliefs and evolve them over time. Bringing a new idea into your life doesn't always mean throwing out the old one completely. Often you can adapt your old worldview to the new information, making the whole picture a little clearer and less rigid.

You've been getting into this discussion pretty deeply, which I appreciate, but try not to worry about coming to a definite conclusion at the end. It's not a debate in the sense that someone is going to win the argument. This is complicated stuff, and we're far from having hard and fast answers. Our knowledge is always shifting and expanding. It's one of the reasons I find discussions like this so fascinating.

Thank you very much, as always you articulate what I'm thinking so well.

This is a great discussion, thanks for posting this entry.

Like you say, since I hadn't thought of it before as that big a privilege, I never really thought to acknowledge it.

I guess if you're saying that there are people worse off than I am, that's pretty bad. I do go through difficult periods, but for the most part, I'm better off now. I think having been told "hey, you might have a problem" has helped me to teach myself not to do some of the same things I did before, but I still get a lot of recognizing that I could have handled something better, two seconds after my reaction. That's probably why I'm getting so wound up by the pressure of this discussion.

Honestly, if you were able to overcome your mental issues in any way without therapy, they're probably not that bad. I'm not saying you're lying, and certainly any sort of mental or emotional instability is difficult to deal with. But, trust me, as someone who goes to therapy and is on medication, life is still difficult. It's not a "choice" whether I function in society or not. Our culture is built so that a very narrow group of people succeed, and people like me aren't in that range. Like it or not, that's how it is, and I don't appreciate the inference that it's my choice whether or not I go about life like "normal" people do.

As strange_tomato said, I don't mean to imply that it's bad for you to be privileged, nor am I reprimanding you. I do think that you should recognise that you are. You're right, I don't know much about you, but what you have is better than many, many people. It's great that people aren't discriminated against for those things where you live, but that just means that your community in general is pretty privileged. Look at the world around you: there is poverty all over the place, broken families, and a staggering number of people suffer from mental disorders. Of course there are people better off, and maybe you're average relative to your community, but relative to the world at large you're very lucky. I just think you should appreciate what you have. :-)

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you or trying to be mean. I'm not. As someone suffering from diagnosed mental disorders, and as someone whose sexuality doesn't fit on the usual spectrum, this post (and especially your comments) struck a chord with me. I appreciate that this is new territory for you and not necessarily something you're completely comfortable with discussing - this is all just another perspective from someone in a different situation, something to think about.

No, it's not that bad. I don't know many people with such severe issues as that, so compared to the "normal" people around me, with no problems that I can see, I thought I had it hard.
But one thing I have experience with is parents who haven't done the research on what they and I think I have, so they don't always realize that my anxiety in public and temporary loss of temper control aren't intentional, and they treat me like a little kid for my "little kid actions" and expect me to behave like someone not afflicted with anything so bad.
(Which really puts things into perspective. If you're telling me there are people worse than I am ... wow.)

Since I've never had it pointed out that I've got such a big privilege, I haven't had the chance to recognize it, really.

Once again, I do appreciate the value of new points of view. Even if I do still disagree when I'm done discussing this, the chance to work myself into a better mindset is something I value.

You do have it hard, compared to what's considered "normal", and I'm very sorry about what you've gone through.

Yes, there are people who are worse off, though it's difficult to compare. My problems aren't like yours, but they make it difficult to live the way most people do. Some days I don't want to wake up (and not because I'm lazy - just depressed), some days the thought of even going out to do the grocery shopping makes me feel physically ill, human interaction is often very difficult for me. I suffer from a range of anxiety and emotional disorders. As I said, it's hard to compare, though, since we are going through such different things. And I don't mean to make this a contest either. :-) It's not about who has it worse; I'm just hoping that sharing a bit about myself will open your eyes to some things you may not otherwise have been aware of.

I don't think we are particularly disagreeing at this point as much as discussing. I can see that you were ignorant to some things (which is understandable, we're all ignorant to some things!), and I just hope I've opened your eyes a bit. We tend to have a very narrow view of the world, so it's nice to have someone else's perspective sometimes. Thank you for considering what I say and not turning this into a flame war.

This conversation is a few days past its expiration date, but I wanted to give a proper response.

re: privilege. Strange and Anon. have already covered this a bit, but I want to reinforce it. You have privilege, a lot of privilege, because you are a straight White cis man who does not have, as far as you have said, any truly disabling physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. You're from the U.S., and if you're part of the middle/upper-middle class, you have even more privilege. Simply because of who you are and where you were born, you have access to certain advantages, rights, and freedoms that other people do not have, simply because of who they are and where they were born. You have privilege whether you want it or not; there is nothing you can do to not have the privilege you do, though you can try and counteract the benefits you receive because of it. It's more complicated than that, of course, but privilege is a core concept in discussions about oppression and social justice; you are going to need a decent understanding and acceptance of it if you want to engage in these conversations, or you are almost definitely going to find a lot of people getting very angry at you, and understandably so.

You should read this. It's a good place to start, I think. Follow the links, do some research. You accuse me of expecting you to know things you've never been exposed to, but that's not the point. Another thing you should keep in mind: these conversations are not about you. The point is, you hurt someone out of ignorance (myself, for one), and people are trying to help you correct that. Yes, it sucks to be caught with egg on your face - most people don't want to hurt others. I've been there, I've stupid shit out of my own biases and privilege, and here's what I can tell you about being called out: You are not being attacked, or condemned; nobody is accusing you of being a bad person, or of being stupid.

It's not about you.

Yes, because you have the privilege to ignore a lot of these issues, you've never given much thought to them; you didn't know. But you know now, and it's on you to do some of the leg work; don't expect me, or anyone, to hold your hand through things like this. Don't expect me, or anyone, to be patient and "nice" with you about this; you're not entitled.

re: choice, I asked because there are Unfortunate Implications in your claim that you "only" make fun of people who "choose" to be that way; you are essentially claiming that you have the authority to determine whether something is a choice, and whether or not that choice is significant. You are essentially claiming that unless someone "can't help it," this or that aspect of who they are deserves to be mocked.

There are a lot of serious problems with that line of thought. For example, in many ways social class is considered a choice. By your logic, it's acceptable to crack jokes about the poor and homeless, because they could choose to change their situation. They could jobs! There are programs they could choose to take advantage of! And yet, that ignores ignores the reality of how incredibly difficult it can be, and is, to pull oneself out of poverty.

Or, to use your own bootstrap argument, disability and mental illness. You yourself made the incredibly ablist claim that people "choose" whether they let their illness control their lives. I do not think you understand how harmful - as in actual and legitimate damage - that sort of thinking causes. I do not believe you get how incredibly angry and hurt I feel, being someone who has lived her whole life with mental illness and learning disabilities, hearing people say that. The entire belief that illness, mental or otherwise, is a "choice" is steeped in ignorance of how difficult it can be to get treatment, how difficult it is to manage an illness even with treatment; it ignores the chronicity of such illnesses and disabilities, and furthermore suggests that there is something wrong with people who live with them, that there is something they need to change. And you imply you have some right to pass judgment on these issues. You do not. No one does, except the person living with them.

It's not that you claimed it's okay to make fun of people with disabilities - I assume you'd say such a bullshit thing as that - but that is what your logic implies, and your thoughts about this are hurtful and problematic besides. You may not have intended them to be so, but intent is not magical.

So, I asked what you consider a choice because I wanted you to think about how problematic and asinine your claim was. I am not trying to "trick" you, or "trap" you, or anything ridiculous like that.

One last thing, with regards to one of your comments down thread, that knowing someone's gender narrows down topics of conversation. It doesn't narrow things down as much as you might think. Menstruation, for example. Not all women menstruate, or even have ovaries. Not all people who menstruate are women. Not all women are comfortable talking about menstruation, and not all men are uncomfortable with it. That's just one example, but basically, the idea that knowing someone's gender will significantly influence what you can and can't talk about is wrong. Honestly, it's Othering to me; you're implying that there is still something fundamentally different about men and women, that women have anything in common beyond self-identifying as women. You're also reinforcing a gender binary, that there are Men and Women, and no one can ever be both or neither or anywhere in between. I don't like it.

I appreciate that it's difficult and uncomfortable when you start entering anti-oppression conversations; it was hard for me, and still is. These aren't easy or simple conversation. However, you do have a lot of shit you need to work through and unpack; it's hard to reply to your comments because there is just so much to cover, and it's exhausting. I know your young, but seriously.

So I'm not the least bit sorry for being angry, or for making you uncomfortable, but I do hope you keep having these discussions, and that you do the research and keep learning. It's hard, and it never really ends, but it's always worth it.

*you'd never say.

My soul for a paid account and edit function :(

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Again with the gender thing...

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Part 1/2

Part 2/2 (lol character limits)

Re: Part 2/2 (lol character limits)