strangetomato | Again with the gender thing...

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Again with the gender thing...

Gender is weird, huh?

I've noticed that people on lj (and other places online, I assume) tend to make something of an issue out of people getting their gender wrong. Someone made a secret about me at one point, saying that they always thought I was a guy, and I wonder how they thought I was going to react to that. I don't really care. If anything, I think it's nice to be anonymously without gender on the internet, and I usually don't select a gender when given the option in profiles and such. If people don't know, then you don't have any of the baggage that comes with it. It's the same reason I use SO instead of husband. Husband feels like such a loaded term to me.

I see people rushing to correct people when they get the gender of a simmer wrong, whether it's themselves or someone else. I notice, too, that it's always males. That's not surprising. It makes sense, given the predominantly female nature of the sims fandom (and fandom in general). We're going to assume y'all have ovaries unless we're told the difference. But why is it so important to correct people?

I was curious about it, so I thought I'd ask (rather than make a simsecret or some such nonsense). For those of you that have done it (and I know a number of people on my flist that have), why do you feel the need to inform people that you or someone else is a male? Note that I'm not here to pick a fight or anything of the sort. I'd just like to hear your side of it.

(Oh, and... for the record, fanseelamb is a female. :P This one seems to come up over and over again.)

And another thing...

I've always been one of those people that tries to be conscious of the gendered messages I give to children in the way I talk to them, like not telling girl's they're "pretty" while telling boys they're "smart" and crap like that (which people do ALL of the time, if you listen to them), but then I noticed I was treating Petey (my first male cat) in a distinctly different way than his big "sister," Suki. How much of that is personality, and how much of that is me projecting? (He's a total Momma's boy, by the way. :P) It's crazy how we slip into these things. The cats are both spayed/neutered, so it's not like they even have any sex-based behaviours to speak of. And they're cats! Do they even have gender?

What do you think? Have any thoughts or interesting stories to share?

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Like women? That's what we were talking about, gender, not all these other mysterious groups. :)

I was really just wondering how one would treat someone like "a girl" online (or in real life, for that matter), because the only way I can possibly think of is general demeaning behaviour/harassment/lol pink.

Nor did I say you said so. (We could keep going on with that, but please, let's not!) My point in saying that was that, even though some jokes are bad no matter whom they're said to, I know not to make an absolutely tasteless attempt at a joke, around someone whom it would offend the most.

(If you'll give me a little more time to articulate, my answers to your curiosities will be here in a while. I'm not used to arguing something I'd consider so complex, so I'm not able to come up with an answer that quickly. My apologies.)

To be honest, once

will_o_whisper took me on about those other groups, I forgot a little about the topic at hand before.

For me, it's just in the way I interact. I'll say the same thing to the person no matter their gender, but knowing might influence the way I phrase it.

And I don't make fun of women. Just a general rule, and not just because I'm surrounded by them in this community.

I know you don't. :) I was just wondering. I'm still not really seeing how it could make much difference in most contexts online, but then, I tend to hang out in pretty sensible communities and avoid the kind of places where it probably would make a difference.

My SO just reminded me of a case on MATY where some silly noob came in and was all 'I have a technical problem, please explain in simple terms because I'm a girl lol lol ^^~~~' and she was instantly attacked by a pack of people telling her to cut it the hell out. I guess that's the sort of crap you'll find in a lot of communities online, especially outside of The Sims ones.

I'm so glad you've brought this up. My perception of gender has always been pretty skewed, although I did rank it higher than maybe I should have done. Mind you, it turns out I do have a good reason - I'm transsexual. So gender etc. has been playing a big part in my life lately.

Since finding out about that, and especially with going through transition and meeting other trans-folks, my perception of gender has got even more - well, not even skewed, just *blurred*. I don't understand why men and women are expected to behave in certain ways. I don't get the whole "blue for boys and pink for girls" bit. People are people; why has society made gender so important that those of us in conflict have to go through so much shit in life?!

Interesting discussion!

People do confuse me for a guy all the time. They see the male avatar and male-centric uploads and assume I'm a gay dude. It doesn't offend me that they think so. It does kind of offend me when they wonder and debate the point rather than taking 2 seconds to look at my profile for the answer. But that has nothing to do with gender, I'm just offended by the general laziness and refusal to read that's so prominent in the sims fandom. :p

Anyhow. It's good to know someone's gender if you chat with them regularly. I mean, you wouldn't wanna start discussing menstrual cramps or hot guys with someone who you thought was a girlfriend only to discover they're a straight male! Awkward. That's pretty much the reason I like to know people's genders, and for them to know mine - just to know how to relate on certain topics. It's also kinda fun to guess and see if you're right... more to test your own assessment skills than actually caring what the answer is. It amuses me when I guess wrong, and I sometimes find it fascinating when I guess wrong and it turns out that person is gay/lesbian.

So, yeah. I wouldn't bother correcting a passing comment. But if it's someone who is a friend or who could become a friend, then it feels weird... maybe even a bit rude... to let them keep thinking I'm a guy when I'm not.

I was really just wondering how one would treat someone like "a girl" online (or in real life, for that matter), because the only way I can possibly think of is general demeaning behaviour/harassment/lol pink.

I can't speak for any males, but it could be a courtesy/respect/chivalry thing. Like a male might tell a fellow male he'd kick his ass, but he wouldn't say that to a "lady". Whether that kind of gender-differentiated behavior falls under the category of demeaning is debatable (I may think it's demeaning to be treated differently because of my gender, but at the same time I want to be treated with respect -- I just think *everyone* should be treated with the same respect).

Edited 2010-08-16 18:31 (UTC)

More going off your tangent than the meat of your message... :)

I think that cats do have gender differences. They're a little more closely linked to their wild roots than we are and male and female cats have very different roles in nature. Of course, we project a great deal on them because we like to anthropomorphize the animals we're closest too.

In general (and there are always exceptions) I've found male cats to be more social while female cats tend to be a bit more wary of people they don't know. Every female cat I've had has bonded with one or two people in the house and the rest are there when she wants something. The male cats, on the other hand, want attention from everyone they deem worthy, which is most people who are not scary small children with sticky hands.

But this really isn't what you're talking about... ;)

That is a good example. I don't know, I don't think that sort of "respect" actually comes from a good place, but it's a complicated topic. I think it's also different whether something like that ("I'll kick your ass") is said online or not and in what context. If it's playful and, for example, related to playing a game, there's no reason to make it gendered.

I would say your reaction is on target. That IS weird. It's weird when women do it on purpose to get gold and runs. And it's weird that a man would pretend to be a woman to get gold and runs.

I thought those kinds of arrangements generally involved at least some flirting or coquettish behavior. Does your friend toy with his victims? Have any of them ever found out he's really male?

It is indeed complicated, and I agree, it doesn't come from a good place even if it's with good intentions. I think we're on the same page, so I won't go on about it. ^_^

I was mostly thinking of online interactions, and personal experience too -- of males who told other males, "You can't talk to Pixel like that, she's a lady." While I might appreciate that someone stuck up for me, there is so much cultural baggage there. O_o

Like, we might try to commiserate with you about menstruation? ;)

He says he doesn't "flirt" but some things can be taken the wrong way by naive kids, and really there's no telling what goes on in private chats. I do know that he won't outright lie-- when he's directly asked if he's a girl, he says no and acts all shocked that someone thought he was. It's just strange because that kind of behavior doesn't sit well with me, but also in real life this guy is normally very kind and progressive.

Yeah, that. Like

pbanda says below, it's a matter of being able to relate to others; knowing someone's gender does narrow down the things with which one can try to relate to them.

I might be a bad person, but I think that's actually pretty funny. He's taking advantage of some kids' stereotypical ideas about women and female WoW players. Once they find out that he's actually a dude, maybe they won't be quite as naïve anymore. :P

Yeah, sounds like we're in agreement here. :)

Heheh, I think where I was really going was that, with the sort of things that are normally associated with being 'treated like a girl', I don't think I really want to be treated like a girl online, either. :P

for years and years, I've been reading that as "farsee" instead of "fansee". Oi.

(but yes, was pretty sure of the female gender there, mostly because of the comments on the female top meshes)

Hey, the tangent was at least half of the post, so no worries. ;)

It's funny, because my cats are exactly the opposite of your theory. Suki is very easygoing and gregarious with anyone at all, even complete strangers, while Petey is a classic "scaredy cat" who hides in the closet when people drop by. And it's not just these two, I can think of dozens of examples where the male cat is friendly/timid or the female is.

Similarly, my Nan used to say that only female cats are any good to have around for killing mice, but Petey kills everything that moves (even teeny, tiny ants). I've developed theories of my own over the years, only to be proven wrong with each new cat.

I feel mostly the same way about the cats as I do about people. It seems like we invent a lot of these theories to simplify things, whether intentional or not. I think there are just as many differences among members of the same sex as there are between them, and so each individual should be examined on their own.

Of course, easier said than done. ;)

Cats don't have a gender as such, but do we project one onto them? Are they really that different when you strip away the sex characteristics? I struggle with this same thing with people. Physical differences and hormonal differences are hard to deny (as a rule), but strip that all away, and what are the true differences? And even that discussion assumes that there are two distinct genders, which doesn't account for intersex people and their experience of the either/or world. And then there's sexuality... distinct from gender, but somehow interconnected.

The more I think and talk about this stuff, the less I feel I know.

It's a "teachable moment." :P BAM — I'm a chick/dude! And then the kids start thinking...

And thinking isn't a bad thing.

(Though manipulating is, so... yeah.)

I can see the humor in it, too... but it annoys me when women deliberately use their gender to gain advantage, so... it feels like perpetuating the same dynamic, just in an even less honest way.

But in the great scheme of things, it's pretty minor. Not something to twist my knickers over.

It's not necessarily kids. I know a number of socially challenged adult men in WoW (I know, big shocker!) And they probably don't learn anything useful, they probably just react in homophobia. But I might be jaded, too. :P

I think I might have thought you were guy, initially, when I was more of a newb in the fandom. I wasn't initially thinking of it as being a mostly female space, because the only other simmers I had known in real life had both been males. I think I was thinking more with the overall "gamers = male" stereotype than the fact that the sims games have more female players than most.

And yeah, mental laziness. :P Gay guys in the screenshots = a gay dude posted them. I still actually "see" you in my head as a sim!Brian Kinney. It's your simmer face. (At least you're not a skunk, like meetme2theriver. XD)

I can see what you're saying about getting to know someone better and relatable topics, in the sense that I'd like to know all sorts of details about as person as I got to know them better. I'm just a little wary about knowing them ahead of time. I don't want to assume anything about a person based on their stats, like gender, sexuality, etc. Even the place people are from does this, so I'm happy enough not to know it at first, lest I make assumptions. Later on, it just becomes another interesting fact about that person.

As for the cramps and hot guys... I have no problems with dumping this content on male friends. Some of my male friends happen to like hot guys, just as not all of my female friends give a toss about them. And my "lady problems" deserve their share of air time. I've had it with dicks hogging all the attention! :P

I can totally understand the guessing game element of it. And it makes it all the more interesting when you see how often people get it wrong online, when we can't actually see people, so we tend to make assumptions. (I think I have a tendency to assume people are all like me before I know any better. I certainly do that with ages.)

Now you have me thinking about letting people assume I'm a guy for too long and then having to play along forever! Heheh. Sort of like when you miss the window of opportunity to ask someone their name and then it's far too embarrassing to ask. XD

I probably said kids instinctively, because after childhood the teaching gets harder and harder. It's sad that so many people stop thinking about things, questioning them, as they get older.

That's why I love talking to kids and aksing them lots of questions. Get it in there while you can! XD

(Edited "thinking about thinks" — LOL!)

Edited 2010-08-16 20:31 (UTC)

I hadn't really thought about it that much, but I might have guessed guy because I associate a lot of male clothing with FSL and by extension with Fanseelamb herself. I think a lot of people might think that way. Also a lot of the older stuff is based on QAF and I don't know many women who watch that show, though I'm sure there are plenty. What little I've seen of it is super testosterone driven.

Anyway, I don't really see the need to tell anyone my gender and wouldn't really feel the need to correct anyone either.

True. On the other hand, men have an advantage simply by being men, so... (not that that makes it okay, manipulation is generally bad, but yeah).

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Again with the gender thing...

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