strangetomato | Simsecret Discussion

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Simsecret Discussion

Man, it's been a while since I've been so involved in a discussion in simsecret (about warnings for gay content, and how this contributes to homophobia vs. it being a legitimate warning for the "genre" of slash). I don't always jump into the fray of these debates, but gender and sexuality are the topics where I can't help but suit up and yell, "Okay, let's play ball!" :P Yes, you could say they are my pet isms, in the sense that they are the ones I am mostly tuned in to.

If anyone wants to toss out their two cents (or more) here, we can continue the chat. Feel free to discuss and debate among yourselves. Just keep it clean, folks.

ETA: After using the sports metaphor above, I ended up with Centerfield by John Fogerty in my head. Argh! It's like I'm stuck at a family wedding back home in The Cove (name of home~~town~~village has been changed to protect the guilty). :P

And I've added a music suggestion to hopefully lighten the mood (and because my SO has amassed something of a Big Fat Gay Music Collection).

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Thanks for starting this rolling!

I think there's a difference in fanfiction, where there are strong "can't stand slash" AND "can't stand gen" contingents. "Gen," "M/M," and "F/F" are categories. An outright warning, to me, is something like "non-con," or "violence."

The Sims 2 is different. I used to write directly on the Exchange. There were things you had to avoid, such as Naughty Words and Implied Nudity. Same-sex relationships weren't one of them.

It's really interesting this came up, because a fellow writer and I just started a locked "slash" comm for a couple of characters. It started as a joke--aka a "crack pairing"--and actually it's taken on a little life of its own. Why are we calling it slash? I'm not sure, unless it's because it only deals with certain characters, it's almost certainly AU, and might confuse our regular readers.

I've noticed that some people can't distinguish between "slash" and "porn" and that is a problem, too.

In my regular story, I've had several same-gender romance story lines. They're all of the same nougaty sweetness as the rest of my story and I ain't gonna "warn" for them, sorry.

I also really strongly object to the way "homosexual content" automatically kicks a TV or a movie into "adult themes" or "mature audiences" and I don't want to play into that.

Hope this was not too teal deer.

I'm heading out of town for most of the day (Road trip! Sunny day! Woooohooo!), but I hope someone else will join you in this discussion. I will be back later.

And I happen to raise herds of teal deer around here for fun, so "give 'er bickies." (Yeah, I'm still on this dialect kick. Sorry about that. :P)

ETA: Spoke too soon. We have a flat tire. I'm still heading out, but seems like it'll be decidely less fun. *sigh* Wish me luck.

Edited 2010-02-27 14:20 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the whole context of all of this (finally took simsecret off my list a few months ago Woo!) but my opinion is that if people are going to be required to warn for Slash then they should also be required to warn for Het.

Yeah, I think that came up, and I agree to a point (at least in the sense that both are treated the same), but I don't personally agree with categorizing by sexuality in any sense. I know it's a fandom convention, but I think we really ought to toss it aside, especially where sims are concerned.

ETA: Not to mention that there are about 7691236519 grey areas that aren't "het" or "slash" or anything else so neatly defined.

Edited 2010-02-27 14:18 (UTC)

True! And I do agree with you. Personally I think we oughta not warn for sexuality at all. But if a comm is going to require a person to warn for slash, then it should be equal in all regards.

And a lot of times people will mention characters/ships in a header so I'm not sure why that couldn't suffice.

But yeah, warning for sexuality seems kind of... stupid. Since it IS such a grey area.

Edited 2010-02-27 14:25 (UTC)

It's been said a little bit over in simsecret, and I've also seen it over at GoS, in their SS discussion thread: the big problem is that a "warning" generally designates something that's bad.

Obviously, most people here who put non-heterosexual content in their stories aren't against it, so they don't mean that warning as a bad thing.

I think if we figured out a better word than warning (I used "interest" in SS but I think that's a little off) we could use that and it wouldn't be as bad?

Yeah, exactly. The pairing would be more than enough information, or I also mentioned that, for sim stories, the teaser pic often gives you all you need to know.

And if it must be mentioned (and I don't think it needs to be at all), then do it for het too. I sort of like it when people warn for het, gay, etc. etc. all in one warning, because it draws attention to this very issue, and how it's unnecessary.

My original comment in simsecret (good for you for kicking the habit, by the way! :P It's still a guilty pleasure for me) was something to the effect of me not actually caring about anyone who would find homosexual content offensive ("Good enough for 'em!") and that they know where the back button is.

The big problem is that a "warning" generally designates something that's bad.

Exactly.

Or that it's something ususual. Pooklet had some great, well-spoken comments about othering gays by feeling the need to mention if homosexual content is present. It's true.

I also mentioned that if there are homosexual actions depicted, for which one would also warn if it were a hetero couple, one can use a warning without the mention of homosexuality, at all.

I remember back in the beginning when I first started to write sims stories, I didn't warn for anything. Later, once I started to get more jiggy wit' my pictures I would warn for that and for other questionable behaviors (ahem incest ahem) but I don't think I've ever felt the need to warn for gay and/or lesbian content. Graphic content, sure... but that goes for het as well.

Not saying I haven't warned for m/m, f/f in the past... but if I did it was because I'd seen it being done on other stories and thought it was the way things were.

I agree we need to change the thinking on it. Graphic sex should probably be warned for, but sex isn't graphic simply because it involves same-sex couples.

Curse you! I am now going back and reading through all the SS discussion on this subject for the week. Also, despite how harsh that first anon is in simsinthecity's thread, I pretty much agree with everything they're saying. ¬_¬

Also POOKLET MARRY ME. And you too Strange. OMG your thread in that post is just full of SO MUCH WIN.

This is a bit off topic but have you ever read "Rape Culture 101"? It's a really awesome article from a really awesome blog that essentially points out what a Rape Culture is and why it's problematic. Just mentioning it, because you talked about humorless feminazis and hating rape jokes and UGH the older I get the more serious about shit like that I become.

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

Yeah, I warn for the smut factor as well, not for the parts involved in them. I think warnings for violence and sex in general are fair, as this is what we base our entertainment ratings on. Oh, and language, if warranted. Those are the only ones I worry about.

It's courtesy to warn for potential triggers, also, as you mentioned the incest thing, and I know violence and non-consent (aka rape — yeah, let's call a spade a spade) can potentially be very damaging for survivors (or victims, if they prefer) to read. I feel the same way for mental health issues, so I also usually warn for extreme despair and depression, if I remember to. Obviously, I'm not perfect with warnings and all that, and some of the times I'm pretty tongue in cheek with it.

And yeah, I think gay content tends to have an impact on ratings out there in the entertainment world (didn't someone say it instantly makes for an adult rating?), but it shouldn't. This is OUR sim comm, and we can make our own rules, right?

Sure can. Sex is sex is sex. Just say that there are sexual situations. That indicates that something might be graphic much more than saying it contains homosexuality.

My last post, for example, had a gay relationship in it, but very little sexuality, aside from one threat of a kiss.

Edited 2010-02-27 15:16 (UTC)

Sorry! XD And I agree that I have a bit of a crush on Pooklet's brain right now. Or at least her way with words. <3

I was involved in a workshop with Michael Kaufman recently (one of the founders of the international White Ribbon Campaign), and we talked about that at great length. I was nodding my head so much to nearly everything he was saying, and it means so much coming from a man (self-reflection for the WIN). By the time he got to "gender does not equal sex" I was about ready to ask him out for coffee (along with my SO, of course! ;)).

I will definitely read that article. Thanks for sharing! And LOL at feminazis! Yes, seeking equality and working to end violence against women makes us just as bad as Hitler.

I think by now you've become established enough in the community that people will know to expect gay content from you, or at least, they'll be aware of the possibility.

I think when there's non-hetero content that wouldn't be warned for with a hetero couple, it's up to the author as to whether they want to attract attention to the fact. Sure, warning people that objectionable content may be ahead promotes homophobia, but not warning won't necessarily make people accept it, either.

Personally, I believe no matter what standard one holds themselves to, it doesn't matter what you do in a game. I don't always hold my Sims to the same moral standards as myself, anyway, because I don't judge them the way I believe I'm being judged.

Oh, and agreed with the teaser. Anything worth reading should give a good idea on the subject with the teaser. Not so much that it gives away everything before even reading, but that it can be looked at after reading and one will think "yeah, as a teaser, it made sense to pick that one."

Well, somewhat. I've been around for quite some time, so people who have also been here will know what to expect, but there are always new people. I still don't feel I should worry about shocking their system by including gay content. If it bothers them, that's too bad.

It probably won't change minds, like you said, but I'm not going to cater to them in any way.

I disagree on the last point. I've never accept "it's just a game" as an excuse to completely ignore these issues. I make a very vocal point of using the same-sex marriage hack, for example, because I feel the game itself is unjust in that regard (this was apparently fixed in Sims 3, which makes me happy).

What you're saying does have some truth to it, though, in the sense that we're writing stories and creating entertainment, and for me that means writing about characters that do not live by my own moral standard, but that doesn't equal supporting those views. I'd write a homophobic character, because it's a character in the story, and they exist. That doesn't mean I think it's right. In that sense, I agree with you.

Still, though... no warnings for stuff like that.

Yeah, a good teaser should lure you in. I agree.

"Warning" for homosexual content contributes to a culture of othering homosexuals, which is just damn stupid. If I started tacking warnings onto everything in my stories that wasn't related to the primarily white, hetrosexual "norm expectation" some readers may go into expecting... tsh.

Many people like that norm because it makes them feel secure, but they lock themselves into such a tiny box. Although, at first, it was hard for me to read through some of your stories I always felt like my ability to understand the expansive and diverse qualities of human nature was expanded afterward - this being because I had never run into a lot of the concepts you were presenting OUTSIDE of a smut-environment, like poly and casual sex. Sheltered Mormon upbringing has screwed me over more than a little now that I am in the "real world."

OP at SS prolly likes their tiny, safe box and wants to try to navigate the world within it, which is really sad, because it says MORE if they get so upset over it they want to write a secret rather than just click that little ol' X. I used to be the same way because of how strictly I was raised - and so of course when I was presented with my first real love, I reacted with anger and fury and nearly destroyed both of us, because we were both women. Homophobia and fury consumed me, till I finally broke - and damn, the sense of peace that came after all those years of anger and confusion...? If I had had stories like yours - even if I did read them in the dark of night glancing guiltily over my shoulder - to read at that time, it would have... made me see that things could work out and I would BE okay. As it is we're now confronting some poly consideration and, once again, among many resources your stories continue to help contribute to the norming of these concepts and help keep me calm, when my poor childhood sculpted brain says I'm about to fall into a dark world of debauchery and misery.

Life is so full of diversity and amazing, unique quirks. I really hope OP realizes that before they end up missing out on a lot of it.

tltr; Homosexual warning -> no. Smut warning -> prolly, depending on level. Stumbling into stories like yours and reading them anyway -> expands world view, IMHO, and is pretty priceless in its own way.

I would say that you are quite brave for writing the way you do - but then again, I wish I didn't have to say it... if that makes sense. xD Your writing is bold, I'll put it there, and I love it. Tacking warnings on might make people avoid it, which I think would be a major loss in many ways for them. /rambling over

Yeah, and I think new people are in the smallest position to be telling anyone what to say. Of course, I don't think free speech should be limited here, at all, so no one's really in that position.

I think those people should just deal with it. I mean, most of those people are the outspoken type who will try to persuade you that their opinion is fact, but you don't have to pay them any attention if you don't want.

I do like using characters I wouldn't necessarily agree with in my stories because it gives it a feel of something that could be a real-life issue.

Of course, there's the difference between simply believing something is wrong and actively persecuting the supposed wrongdoers for it. When I see something I think is objectively morally wrong in the community (which happens a lot) I just ignore it (for stories, not the actions of members of the community ... not as much).

*de-lurks*
I've seen this thread, because I'm addicted to all the drama happening in secret communities. I was really glad when most people agreed with the poster, because it is a big problem in the literary world.

Many, many authors all over the internet slap a big warning for slash of m/m or whatever they decide to call it. Let's not forget about the threatening: "if you don't like it, go away you heathen!11!". This is the point I usually click the nifty 'x'. As you all above me mentioned, the real warnings should be for sex, kinky sex, violence, etc., not who is engaging in it. I would even stomach a warning for Harlequin romance, since it's a legitimate one for me ;) . The only place, I could see it, not as a warning, but an information, it's the fanfiction world. Once again someone said it: just mention the people involved and you're done.

This is all an utopian ideal when dealing with the internet - because it's full of bigots, trolls and idiots. They love to be warned for everything existing, so it doesn't shatter their little world. On the other hand, I've seen pretty intelligent people who "accept" (as in tolerate as long it is in the distance of 100m) gays, but shudder when reading about anything mentioning them.

Then, we have the real world, where people also love to stay inside their comfort zones. While there are no warnings slapped on films or books, they are sorted into proper categories and given a higher rating. Even those not revolving around romance. I've seen this done so many times - every book in my country with gay characters automaticly goes into the gay bin and gets an article on "tolerance". It worries me, because if I ever decide to publish my novel where the narrator happens to be bi and lands with a man in the end, it will end up there. Not reaching the targeted audience at all - because it's not about romance - it's a crime novel.

Okay, did I go off topic? I'm bad at ranting.

That whole section about labeling books IRL is interesting to me, because at some point in that whole SS discussion there was a lot of talk about subgenres and I was actually not exactly sure if real world bookstores had a tendency to lump queer fiction together as something like a subgenre.

Next time I go into a bookstore I'm going to try looking at the romance section and see if I can find any gay fiction put among it's numbers without singling it out in a section all of its own.

Also, I think it truly sucks that your book would be categorized in such a way since, from the sound of it, the character's sexuality is so completely secondary to the plot.

Basically, separating stories by character's sexuality is just furthering this idea that people are locked into certain roles when it comes to their sexuality and that there are no gray areas instead of acknowledging that sexuality, while a part of a person, is only a fragment of a whole. Your character's sexuality is a part of hir and a part of the story, but it is not (from the sound of it anyway) the overreaching theme/genre.

The bookstores in my town don't have such section - it's a conservative one, so no gays for you. We also have one major branch store, but I've never ventured to the romance side there. It's mostly the fault of the publishers and the marketing. When a book with lots of sex is published, even if it's not the main point, it gets marketed as ~controversial~. It, of course makes it sell better. Thus, the book with gay characters is intended to sell well with this audience.

I think I've seen only one author get away with kinky lesbian sex - it was a well-known and respected one. His book was about the division between the countryside and the cities in the 90s. However, it was dumped into the teen category :P - because the main character was 14. It definitely wasn't a book for kids - I read it when I was 13 and it scared the crap out of me.

I've seen this being done with relation of race as well. I remember a similar discussion taking place in another secret community where the poster said a similar thing: they had a gay, black character and it was a fantasy book - it was not about any of those issues. In mine, the very main problem, besides the dead bodies, is that the narrator is a laying bastard - it kind of relates to his problems with people, but not really sexuality.

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