Simsecret Discussion

[strangetomato]

Man, it's been a while since I've been so involved in a discussion in simsecret (about warnings for gay content, and how this contributes to homophobia vs. it being a legitimate warning for the "genre" of slash). I don't always jump into the fray of these debates, but gender and sexuality are the topics where I can't help but suit up and yell, "Okay, let's play ball!" :P Yes, you could say they are my pet isms, in the sense that they are the ones I am mostly tuned in to.

If anyone wants to toss out their two cents (or more) here, we can continue the chat. Feel free to discuss and debate among yourselves. Just keep it clean, folks.

ETA: After using the sports metaphor above, I ended up with Centerfield by John Fogerty in my head. Argh! It's like I'm stuck at a family wedding back home in The Cove (name of hometownvillage has been changed to protect the guilty). :P

And I've added a music suggestion to hopefully lighten the mood (and because my SO has amassed something of a Big Fat Gay Music Collection).

Comments

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

Couple of points.

Obviously, most people here who put non-heterosexual content in their stories aren't against it, so they don't mean that warning as a bad thing.

This is not true at all. Woman-on-woman porn is popular among straight men. So is porn involving trans women. Let me assure you, however, that most straight men watching this porn definitely do not have the best interests of women, lesbians, or transgendered people at heart.

You would be amazed at how many straight women gush over how 'hot' slash is (even when it is not explicit), while in the same breath stating that femslash is disgusting. You would be amazed at how many straight women enjoy slash while not supporting gay rights. You would be amazed at how many straight women read explicit gay erotica while simultaneously believing homosexuality is a sin. This sort of thing is not rare.

Including marginalized people in fiction is not the same as supporting real, actual members of marginalized groups. It's called fetishizing.

Furthermore, even if someone doesn't "mean" for something to be hurtful (such as "warning" for Teh Gay") doesn't mean it isn't. And I'm sorry, but your comments exemplify this. While I am honestly trying not to get angry, because you do seem like a decent person who means well, but your comments smack of straight privilege. Look at what you said here:

Sure, warning people that objectionable content may be ahead promotes homophobia, but not warning won't necessarily make people accept it, either.

Now, it could be I read this wrong, and maybe you can explain. But it sure looks to me like what you're saying here is that actions supporting institutionalized prejudice don't matter. Attitudes like this are part of the problem. Attitudes like this are just as, if not more, harmful as deliberate acts prejudice.

Attitudes like this validate bigotry - by not only not objecting to actions that promote bigotry, but also engaging in them yourself, you are saying that such actions are acceptable. Maybe you don't mean to, but that is exactly what you are doing. And as a queer woman, you're hurting me; you're hurting my friends and peers; you're hurting their friends and girlfriends and boyfriends; you're hurting our families.

Am I making any sense at all?

I'm too tired to really get into it, but I'll also say that "It's just a game!" and "It's just fiction!" are not defenses.

[profbutters.livejournal.com]

"You would be amazed at how many straight women gush over how 'hot' slash is (even when it is not explicit), while in the same breath stating that femslash is disgusting. You would be amazed at how many straight women enjoy slash while not supporting gay rights. You would be amazed at how many straight women read explicit gay erotica while simultaneously believing homosexuality is a sin. This sort of thing is not rare."

Oh, my God, this is so true, and I have complained about it elsewhere. Unfortunately, you can't stroll up to every reader, ask a few key questions, and then say "I'm sorry, young lady, but I am impounding your slash: you can have it back when you have thought this through." But I have certainly wished I could.

I know I do not always write same-gender relationships as well as I ought to, but I try to stay alive to this issue.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll take back that first statement you quoted me on. I guess I hadn't thought of those kinds of people. But from what I have seen here in the Sims community, that still holds true.

And by that second quote, I mean that just taking away the "warnings" or whatever else we can call them, isn't going to do the trick. I think if you want to get rid of homophobia, it will take more than just that.

I didn't mean to say anything that validates persecution or bigotry or anything, so I'm sorry for that. This whole subject is something I still have to give a lot of thought to, so what I've been saying isn't really expressing well how I feel about this. I'll try thinking a little more before I talk about it again.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I have to comment on the second point. Homophobia and heterosexism are never going to simple go away if people do not pick away at these small, seemingly harmless things like warnings for gay content.

I have been working for community-based organizations and nonprofit NGOs for quite some time now, and this is the only way to really make these changes. Laws and things are great, but they don't change commonly-held beliefs and opinions. It is only through education and advocacy that we can challenge those beliefs and change them. It's asking a classroom of middle schoolers WHY we bully boys for wearing pink as so on (and I have done this, pleased to see at least a handful of lightbulbs lighting up over their heads), it's having the balls (and ovaries) to say that you think a joke is (insert ism here)-ist, even to your friends.

When we're talking about entertainment, which is sort of what we do with sim stories in a very minor way (meaning we're not really making big change unless we're in a more mainstream media, but it does all make some small difference), our best measure for making these changes and promoting acceptance is to just include it, no questions asked.

You don't have to feel bad for expression that opinion. It's good that you brought it up, so we can discuss it. It's quite easy to express a view that is homophobic without realizing it, because it slips by and is never questioned. You just never thought about it that way. It's very positive that, once pointed out to you, you ARE questioning it. For that, I commend you.

When challenging it, we also need to be clear that we're talking about "people who are behaving in homophobic ways" rather than homophobes, bigots, etc. I think that's where we lose people a lot of the time. All of us will behave this way if we aren't aware of the other side. We need to depersonalize it, so people don't automatically get defensive.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

That was my point, exactly. Taking away warnings is a good start to ending homophobia and heterosexism, but there needs to be more to it.

Even though I follow a religion that tells me homosexuality and the like is immoral, I'm unsure as to whether anything should be legally prohibited the way it is. In that sense I feel like the parent who finds out his child is gay, and even though I think it's wrong, I still want them to be happy doing what they want.