strangetomato | Discussion: Strong Female Characters

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Discussion: Strong Female Characters

This is mostly for

will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for

beyondheroism__ and

smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by

sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).

In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.

The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)

Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.

Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.

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I like this discussion and will be back later to talk about it, but I must go shopping ATM. :(

Basically, I agree with pretty much everything you say here.

Oh, I definitely think a female Frances would be perceived as annoying and pretty much the scrappy of the story instead of the woobie.

And just think how different the reactions to R/O/J would be if their genders were reversed. Ripp and Johnny would fall into the the stereotypical Betty & Veronica character types and, unfortunately, Phi would be much more popular as a male. :/ Likewise, a male Nina would have tons of fans and stories about being changed by the love of a good woman...

It really does suck that writing a character as female brings up such baggage in a way a male one doesn`t. Female characters still aren`t allowed to be fully flawed and complex as males - they`re still placed into whore/madonna territory or alternatively weak(pathetic) versus strong(bitchy).

I was using Frances as an example of someone who's very similar to Ophelia in temperment, but much more well-received. In addition to the brooding introspection, Frances is also a snob and fairly contemptuous of most people, yet he's still sympathetic. I have gotten numerous negative reactions to Phi, though, ranging from straight dislike to "I just don't get her."

Love the Betty/Veronica/Archie comparison! :P Nobody gave Archie any crap for it, did they? It was also way more accepted that Betty and Veronica would be cool with sharing. It was a harder sell for Ripp and Johnny. I felt like it was necessary to put them through the wringer a little more to even make it make sense. With girls, I wouldn't have needed it so much.

A female Nina would be more like a Ripp, I agree. I do enjoy the characters of Dina and Nina as they are, though. People do tend to usually settle Nina down with Don, though, and I don't really see the need for that. I do enjoy that idea that they're special to each other, but it's not the only way. Nina could just be left as a free-wheeling romance sim. (The "never settle down" vs. the "marry them off" is a whole 'nother discussion for romance sims. I think both are valid, since both do happen.)

It's limited for the male characters too, in a way. They also have to fight against gender assumptions. There's no doubt it's harder for female characters to win out, though. We see it time and again.

I'd love to hear what you have to say, because I think you've made some excellent points on this in the past.

I started writing a reply with a lot of horrible broken English when I wandered just a bit further into the internet and found this essay by the same Sarah:
http://www.sarahreesbrennan.com/essayladies.html

She says it so much better than I ever would :P Basically, I agree ^^;

^_^

It makes me sad and bitter to know that Frances would be almost universally disliked, if not hated, if his name were a proper reflection of his gender. I'd like to think otherwise, but given the appalling level of vitriol you can see...I just don't. :(

Your more familiar with the Maxis premades than I am, but the impression I've gotten is that many of them do get strong armed into "traditional" situations with women playing second fiddle to their husbands/brothers/lovers/guy friends/whatever. Though, like you said the game is open ended enough, and the back stories tend to be vague enough, that you don't necessarily have to accept this. But still. I will say, in the two examples you listed:

I think a large part of the impression of Dina as a gold digger is powerfully perpetuated in game, with the suggestion that her and Nina's interest in Morty is "fiscal," her memory of a big insurance claim after Michael's death, her wanting to "make it big" without thinking. And I do think a lot of this would carry over if she were Nino instead, though the term gold digger might not be used - it doesn't seem to be used in association with men much at all. But I do think there would be a general impression that "Nino" was only marrying for money. People would probably be more sympathetic towards him, though, and I have to wonder what the opinion of Mortimer would be if he were Morticia? Somehow, I expect she would take a lot more blame for "stupidly" falling for Nino's tricks.

You have no idea how much I wish Don had been Donna instead. :< Against all logic, I love him, but I'd love her so much more. Chastity Gere comes close to being a girl!Don, I think, in that she's in a "successful" demanding career (business vs. medicine), and a description that suggests a casual approach to sex and serial heartbreaking. The nonexistence could be explained away as laziness on EAs part, in that the stories for the new hoods aren't nearly as well put together as the old ones. But that's still a problem.

I would love to write, or see written, stories about the gender-bent PView. It changes a lot of how the characters are perceived, but also how they're developed. Looking at Don again, he's intended, so it seems, to be strongly defined by his masculinity. If you accept that you're assuming a world where those gender roles exist, and at the least it makes it difficult to carry that same characterization and "manliness" over to a female character. Which begs the question, can you even have a Don-like character who's defined by her femininity instead?

My own personal preference is towards female characters who are badass, possibly "too" badass. This is pretty strongly driven by my love of fantasy/action/scifi genres, where the hero kicks ass and takes names. Every now and then I like to think the Big Damn Hero/BAMF can look like me (because I am not like those heroes at all). But it makes me physically angry when people when people say a woman can't be a good character if she's weak or sensitive. The theory I've seen behind that is that a female character is usually seen to represent EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER EVERYWHERE EVER, so if she's weak, she's perpetuating stereotypes. But at the same time, if she's a bitch she's also perpetuation stereotypes, and if she's too assertive she's a bitch. If she's not assertive enough she's weak. So she has to be perfect, but then she's boring.

I while back I actual saw a question on

ffrantsrants asking if it's even possible to write a good female character. The answer is yes, so I'd think the more appropriate question would be "Is it possible to write a female character that will be perceived as 'good'?".

*rambles*

ohai thar wall-o-text. D:

~~I'm not really sorry, though. Sorry. D:~~

(delurking now. I have been reading your story for awhile but never commented so I guess the first thing I should do is say hello. I really enjoy your story and the discussions on here.)

I know this is a little off topic. The main issue I have is what defines a strong female character. I have noticed in fiction and in real life that women who are loud and in your face tend to be considered strong and women who are soft spoken and polite are seen as weak or pathetic. Strong to me is strong willed. Someone who is able to persevere no matter the circumstances. I don't believe that outspoken people are necessarily strong by that definition and soft spoken people are not necessarily weak.

Jen

It's funny, because this recently came up (again) in Shortpacked!. Amber, a main character, started out an insanely shy doormat. When she first started being more assertive, her best friend (Ethan) started distancing himself from her, and was called on it by another guy, Mike ("Didn't have you pegged for a predator").

Now she's found her balance, is more or less happy, and is in a relationship with Mike, the resident asshole (she went in knowing he was an ass, and he's not abusive towards her, so I guess as long as it's working for her?), she's getting blasted for being a whore. WHAT. (At least the creator has her back.)

edit: let's have a proper response, yes?
It's still very much a minefield when a character isn't "straight, white, and male" since it's still expected to be the relatable norm. It's ass, but its still the nature of the beast. Everyone who falls outside of that box is going to be looked at more critically. A favorite example is Anya from Buffy. By the end of the series , I was getting fed up with how genocidal the show was (I know, I'm weird). (Spike,) Anya and Clem (and Lorne on Angel) were pretty much token demons- they weren't evil, but the main cast still thought "evil" went hand in hand with "demon".

Fans NEVER accepted anything Anya did. When she sang that she was good with math, people bitched because when she was recently humanized (3-4 years earlier!) she said she was failing math. Nevermind she had been a demon for 1,100 years and in the interim discovered that she loved money. Doesn't it make sense for a budding capitalist to make an effort to learn math?! No one cared that she'd only been human for a short time and was in a constant state of culture shock. No one cared that she was the oldest regular character and treated her like she was younger than Buffy.

No point, just bitching.

Edited 2009-08-26 16:55 (UTC)

YES.(Sorry, I was re-reading my roommate's Y- the Last Man and went off on a "Goddammit WTF are you doing to 355?!" rant. It's like it's ok that she gets the brunt of the abuse because she's the badass secret agent or some shit. Of course, I also love how a comic with ONE GUY can be so dan misogynistic.)

The whole Pleasantview story is a very good example of different standards for men and women. Despite the fact that we're able to do whatever we want with the characters, most people accept that Dina is a golddigger and Nina is the token Bad Girl/Slut. Both of them are either comic relief or manipulative bitches. It seems we're supposed to pity Cassandra for being engaged to a man with an obvious Madonna-Whore complex and cheer for her if she gets dumped becuase then she can move on to something better OR if they do get married she can redeem him with her family-oriented love. (Is she Family? I keep seeing her as Knowledge.)

Well, screw that one-dimensional logic. :) For every "golddigger" there's an old man who wants to marry a young girl for whatever reason (some of them creepy, some less so). For every slut there are a ton of men who wants to sleep with her. But it's always women who get the low status.

Female characters aren't usually allowed to be anything but perfect. If you write about rape or abuse you make the woman a victim and we can never be victims. Nor too strong. Nor too pretty. And not eccentric, thank you very much.

I could rant about this forever since I'm currently writing about the Caliente sisters. Sorry about that. :)

First of all, ladies is awesome. All ladies. Kickass HBICs and mild-mannered women.

I think it's pretty obvious that there's a double standard when it comes to how we perceive men versus women. Men are allowed so much more room to whine or complain or be weak and strong at the same time, but if a female character doesn't maintain a firm balance then she is ultimately annoying. Which is bull shit. Everyone's allowed to feel and hate and love all the same and it doesn't make any difference.

I always find it depressing that your fanbase seems to wish Ophelia out of the picture. Look, I do love me some Johnny/Ripp, but without Phi, they lack. I love her quiet strength and surprising silliness now and then. I like how she's mysterious and muted and that there's an entire part of the story dedicated to Ripp making attempts to better understand her.

She's such a subtle character in a lot of ways. And I would never want to change that about her.

People come in all different types. Obviously, we're not going to like every person in the world, same goes for characters in stories, but before passing judgement on a character be sure to think about why you don't like them.

The worst is blanket statements that there are no good female characters in "XX". Bull fucking shit.

Also! I love your Circe as a villain, because she's smart and ruthless and (hopefully) isn't going to have a mental breakdown like almost all female villains because 'females can't handle that much power'.

And basically: YAY LADIES!

My own personal preference is towards female characters who are badass, possibly "too" badass. This is pretty strongly driven by my love of fantasy/action/scifi genres, where the hero kicks ass and takes names. Every now and then I like to think the Big Damn Hero/BAMF can look like me (because I am not like those heroes at all). But it makes me physically angry when people when people say a woman can't be a good character if she's weak or sensitive. The theory I've seen behind that is that a female character is usually seen to represent EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER EVERYWHERE EVER, so if she's weak, she's perpetuating stereotypes

This. Yes. I think men are accepted as individuals, as human beings first and foremost and men second, and thus male characters can be anything they want to be.

It's the same way with minority groups, just look at how homosexual characters were represented fifteen years ago. Still are to some extent. Always the incredibly trustworthy, loyal, sweet gay best friend who never had any sex ever and just stood there as a shoulder to cry on when the female lead needed to. (Melrose Place must be the perfect example of this.) Sometimes they died of AIDS, too. But of course the gay male can't be an asshole, that would mean all gay men are assholes.

I fucking love the Caliente sisters. I think Dina is probably the smartest person in that whole damn town and Nina breaks my heart, because I always get the feeling that she really isn't sure what she wants at all.

...I wish I had a Nina icon. :(

I am going to marry this comment.

I think men are accepted as individuals, as human beings first and foremost and men second, and thus male characters can be anything they want to be.

This really sums things up as I've seen them explained, and as I've perceived them. An able bodied/minded straight white man isn't seen as any of those things, not in life and not in fiction. He's seen as person and a character, and people and characters can, as you said, be anything. Anyone falling outside that often becomes something "else": a Gay Politician, a Black Surgeon, a Woman Cop, as opposed to just a politician, surgeon, or cop. In books, t.v., whatever, they end up being seen as Female Characters, Gay Characters, Black Characters, *insert relevant aggrieved group here* Characters. And that puts a lot of pressure on those people and character to be Right, instead of just human.

And I'm not really sure how to fix that.

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy

Olive Specter & Circe Beaker? :D

Don't have much to add at the moment, just wanted to thank for the link, it was an interesting read.

If Phi were cut out of the picture there would be not J/R/O, and that would be a tragedy. Seriously, I can't understand removing her when she's, like, the axis around which so many relationships revolve. She is just so sad and strong and kind and ilu forever Ophelia. :<

Obviously, we're not going to like every person in the world, same goes for characters in stories, but before passing judgment on a character be sure to think about why you don't like them.
This, so hard. One of my favorite lurking fandoms is Torchwood, and there is just so much hatred for the female lead, Gwen, that it makes me sick. The most commonly touted reason for this? She's a bitch and a whore.

And I'm sorry, but 'she's a bitch and a whore' are not valid defenses for disliking a character. Expound, please.

Yes. Yes, exactly. "Female" is a character trait, and as you said, so is black, gay, anything that falls outside the default white heterosexual male. Given any group in any mediocre standard fiction or movie, it will consist of something like 'the hero, the funny guy, the black guy and the woman'.

Honestly, I'm not even sure Johnny and Ripp's friendship would have made it this far without Phi. They can both be pretty volatile characters when left to their own devices. She calms them down when they both start getting upset or riled up.

Johnny totally stole my heart at some point, but Phi used to be my favorite and I still love her OH SO MUCH. I love her quiet strength. And remember that time she bravely led the boys back to the Specter estate even though Olive terrified her and she hated it there, especially at night? Just because she doesn't kick ass and take names, doesn't mean she's weak or useless or unnecessary.

Also, the boys love her, regardless of fan opinion on her character.

This, so hard. One of my favorite lurking fandoms is Torchwood, and there is just so much hatred for the female lead, Gwen, that it makes me sick. The most commonly touted reason for this? She's a bitch and a whore.

Ugh, fuck this mentality. I bet she'd be the most popular character on the damn show if she'd been a boy. That's how it generally seems to go. I've never watched Torchwood, but BOOOOO Torchwood fandom. BOO.

Generally, I come from fandoms that really love and appreciate their ladies. But yeah, I've definitely run into places where it's nothing, but praise for the boys and general disdain for the girls. :(

Ooo, I love me some discussion!

Firstly: I totally agree with everything the post says, and EVERYTHING

will_o_whisper said, so no point in rehashing.

I think Harriet Potter would have been killed of she were real. I HATE Harry Potter, actually, for the same reasons that people would have hated Harriet: he was annoying, whiny, selfish, impulsive and emo. He was also a Mary-Sue, but people don't like to mention that. He may have been "flawed", but as

sarahtales said, he still got the girl(s), was loved by all and had a million and a half friends.

You know I love strong female charcters. I love them because they're strong, emotionally, ruthless, powerful, and they know what they want. I also love "weak" female characters- you know I love Ophelia. I think I do have a tendency to like a character more if she's written as strong from the start, like Tara from true Blood- she started off as a tough, wounded woman who was butter and angry. Now, in Season 2, she's hated by most everyone because she's annoying and whiny. I kind of hate her too, but I can't pinpoint the exact reason why.

As most everyone said, I think it's the nature of the game to "switch" their perceptions of a character depending on their gender. Like Alyssa said, women are expected to be these beacons of strength no matter what they go through, whether realistic or not. Like Ophelia- if she ever mentions her dead parents everyone whines that she's being emo. It's ridiculous for us to expect female characters to stay the same ALL THE TIME. if they were dealt a shitty lot in life, let them be who they want to be!

I had more I wanted to say but I forgot. I feel like everything's been said. D:

I'll be back.

Hrm, well I do have a Dawn Lothario from an old asylum challenge...she hooked up with Sim!Jesus and they now have two kids. Tasty madness, my game is it. XD

It's something to think about, the what-if certain well-known characters were female instead of male, and how an audience would accept them or not. The thing I find great about Sims is that they aren't preprogrammed with stereotypical male and female roles. Sims themselves don't make distinctions based on sex. Ripp is just as likely to be a crybaby as Ophelia. In my game, Meadow Thayer is a bit more in-charge than her common law husband Ripp, Anther has two mommies, and Tank seems to prefer bottoming to Frances. It could be how I choose to write them, but the game does allow for a lot more gender flexibility.

And remember that time she bravely led the boys back to the Specter estate even though Olive terrified her and she hated it there, especially at night?

Not perfectly, but yes. :) (it's hard trying to reread without pictures, curse you Photobucket ;___;. I think I found it, though. It's chapter 19, right?) But it's things like that that make her fantastic, because she's stronger than she knows and good and does the right thing even when it terrifies her.

Exactly, ladies don't need to kick ass to BE kick ass.

I could rage about misogyny and Gwen-hate and why Torchwood fandom is the worst fandom ever, but I won't do that in S_T's journal.

Though more broadly, a lot of the hatred towards Gwen comes from her perceived cock-blocking of a popular ship, Jack/Ianto. Despite the fact that Jack/Ianto was canon until the day Ianto died, and Gwen/Jack never went past UST, but there's fandom logic for you. Jack and Gwen definitely had a non-physical love affair going on, though, and this was understandably seen as being unfair to Ianto. Here's the deal, though: Jack is almost never blamed for his jerk-ass behavior. Gwen, however, is reviled for having feelings she could, but never does, act on; she's in love with Jack, but she's in love with her boyfriend/future husband too, and she's chosen him over Jack more than once. Jack is the one who won't let go, and Gwen is blammed for this.

And from what I've seen, this isn't uncommon: women are most often blamed for ruining relationships (whether she did or not), absolving the man of responsibility. How could he resist that evil homewrecker's vagina? Or something. I think sarahtales put it best, that "We're suspicious of girls when they're wanted." And if she is desirable, she's blamed for it in a way men often aren't.

God, I love Tara. I could never hate her, even now when she's hit this rock bottom of sorts. Also, I do think Maryann was good for her in some ways and I hope the show acknowledges this when all is said and done. It IS okay to like yourself and to want to be happy. It's okay to be selfish and sexy and out of control now and then. It's about moderation.

I want to see how the show wraps up the Maryann narrative. She was more interesting when she was a morally grey character. Now that she's all out CRAZY AS FUCK, it's easier to hate her and damn her ideals. But they aren't BAD ideas of life.... they're just EXTREME. And you can't be all happy or all angry or all sad ALL the time. You'd die.

I love season one Tara with all my soul, but I'd like to think she's going to grow as a character from all these experiences. She's such a powerful girl and it's heartbreaking to see Maryann take away her control and intelligence like that. :(

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy

I'd love a good ruthless female bad guy who didn't also have to be the seductress, or have the back story of being evil because she's not beautiful and hates the universe because of it. I want an female villain who's evil because she IS!

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Discussion: Strong Female Characters

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