Strange Tomato (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
strangetomato) wrote2009-08-26 11:02 am
strangetomato) wrote2009-08-26 11:02 am
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Discussion: Strong Female Characters
This is mostly for will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).
In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.
The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)
Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.
ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.
Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.
will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.
The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)
Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.
ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.
Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.
no subject
Firstly: I totally agree with everything the post says, and EVERYTHING
I think Harriet Potter would have been killed of she were real. I HATE Harry Potter, actually, for the same reasons that people would have hated Harriet: he was annoying, whiny, selfish, impulsive and emo. He was also a Mary-Sue, but people don't like to mention that. He may have been "flawed", but as
You know I love strong female charcters. I love them because they're strong, emotionally, ruthless, powerful, and they know what they want. I also love "weak" female characters- you know I love Ophelia. I think I do have a tendency to like a character more if she's written as strong from the start, like Tara from true Blood- she started off as a tough, wounded woman who was butter and angry. Now, in Season 2, she's hated by most everyone because she's annoying and whiny. I kind of hate her too, but I can't pinpoint the exact reason why.
As most everyone said, I think it's the nature of the game to "switch" their perceptions of a character depending on their gender. Like Alyssa said, women are expected to be these beacons of strength no matter what they go through, whether realistic or not. Like Ophelia- if she ever mentions her dead parents everyone whines that she's being emo. It's ridiculous for us to expect female characters to stay the same ALL THE TIME. if they were dealt a shitty lot in life, let them be who they want to be!
I had more I wanted to say but I forgot. I feel like everything's been said. D:
I'll be back.
no subject
I want to see how the show wraps up the Maryann narrative. She was more interesting when she was a morally grey character. Now that she's all out CRAZY AS FUCK, it's easier to hate her and damn her ideals. But they aren't BAD ideas of life.... they're just EXTREME. And you can't be all happy or all angry or all sad ALL the time. You'd die.
I love season one Tara with all my soul, but I'd like to think she's going to grow as a character from all these experiences. She's such a powerful girl and it's heartbreaking to see Maryann take away her control and intelligence like that. :(
no subject
I totally agree with you on the growth thing as well. I want Tara to realize that it's okay to be happy, and it's okay to be sad. Tara is very extreme for me, I think- she's either ALWAYS angry or ALWAYS sad or ALWAYS this, she needs to learn to control herself. I do still like her a bit though, even though she's lost her edge.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-08-27 05:30 am (UTC)(link)Because he had flaws? Seriously? He's one of the least selfish characters I've ever read about (it's not he's fault he was protected by his loved ones, he was just a kid, for Christ's sakes!)
I don't know what you mean by 'annoying' (that's incredibly vague, and I disagree), he wasn't EMO (how depressed would you be if you were in his situation?) and, uh, YEAH he was impulsive, that was part of his character! You can not like him if you want, but I absolutely hate it when people bash Harry, because not a single one of them would be able to handle his life, and that's a fact.
He wasn't loved by all. He had close friends whom he earned the trust and respect of, and he had admirers because he was seen as a messiah -- but half of those people had no idea who he really was or what he was going through. He also had a shit-load of enemies.
I seriously have to wonder if you even read the books, because that's just a really stupid generalization to make about a character.
no subject
Josh is entitled to his own opinions of Harry. Really, it's cool. You don't have to jump to the defense of Harry Potter. I'm sure he'll be okay.
no subject
You're both welcome to your opinions, right? I'm sure it's not mandatory that everyone likes Harry Potter (even if they are fans of the series), though it seems like you take personal offense at this for some reason. I can understand this, when you're very fond of a character (and it's worse if you're writing said character), but you have to accept that not everyone will like the same characters. It's like when we're talking about people disliking Ophelia. Obviously I would prefer it if they liked her, since I do, but they're still more than welcome to that opinion.
I happen to agree with Josh's thought (which I've definitely heard elsewhere too) that Harry was basically a Mary-Sure, and I think it would be way more obvious to way more people if he had been a female. That said, he's a certain character type, and they're quite often exactly like that. I didn't dislike him for it, but I also thought he was far from the most interesting character in the series.
This is the part where we throw our hands up and say "To each their own."