Discussion: Strong Female Characters

[strangetomato]

This is mostly for will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).

In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.

The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)

Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.

 

Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.

Comments

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

First of all, ladies is awesome. All ladies. Kickass HBICs and mild-mannered women.

I think it's pretty obvious that there's a double standard when it comes to how we perceive men versus women. Men are allowed so much more room to whine or complain or be weak and strong at the same time, but if a female character doesn't maintain a firm balance then she is ultimately annoying. Which is bull shit. Everyone's allowed to feel and hate and love all the same and it doesn't make any difference.

I always find it depressing that your fanbase seems to wish Ophelia out of the picture. Look, I do love me some Johnny/Ripp, but without Phi, they lack. I love her quiet strength and surprising silliness now and then. I like how she's mysterious and muted and that there's an entire part of the story dedicated to Ripp making attempts to better understand her.

She's such a subtle character in a lot of ways. And I would never want to change that about her.

People come in all different types. Obviously, we're not going to like every person in the world, same goes for characters in stories, but before passing judgement on a character be sure to think about why you don't like them.

The worst is blanket statements that there are no good female characters in "XX". Bull fucking shit.

Also! I love your Circe as a villain, because she's smart and ruthless and (hopefully) isn't going to have a mental breakdown like almost all female villains because 'females can't handle that much power'.

And basically: YAY LADIES!

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

If Phi were cut out of the picture there would be not J/R/O, and that would be a tragedy. Seriously, I can't understand removing her when she's, like, the axis around which so many relationships revolve. She is just so sad and strong and kind and ilu forever Ophelia. :<

Obviously, we're not going to like every person in the world, same goes for characters in stories, but before passing judgment on a character be sure to think about why you don't like them.
This, so hard. One of my favorite lurking fandoms is Torchwood, and there is just so much hatred for the female lead, Gwen, that it makes me sick. The most commonly touted reason for this? She's a bitch and a whore.

And I'm sorry, but 'she's a bitch and a whore' are not valid defenses for disliking a character. Expound, please.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I'm not even sure Johnny and Ripp's friendship would have made it this far without Phi. They can both be pretty volatile characters when left to their own devices. She calms them down when they both start getting upset or riled up.

Johnny totally stole my heart at some point, but Phi used to be my favorite and I still love her OH SO MUCH. I love her quiet strength. And remember that time she bravely led the boys back to the Specter estate even though Olive terrified her and she hated it there, especially at night? Just because she doesn't kick ass and take names, doesn't mean she's weak or useless or unnecessary.

Also, the boys love her, regardless of fan opinion on her character.

This, so hard. One of my favorite lurking fandoms is Torchwood, and there is just so much hatred for the female lead, Gwen, that it makes me sick. The most commonly touted reason for this? She's a bitch and a whore.

Ugh, fuck this mentality. I bet she'd be the most popular character on the damn show if she'd been a boy. That's how it generally seems to go. I've never watched Torchwood, but BOOOOO Torchwood fandom. BOO.

Generally, I come from fandoms that really love and appreciate their ladies. But yeah, I've definitely run into places where it's nothing, but praise for the boys and general disdain for the girls. :(

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

And remember that time she bravely led the boys back to the Specter estate even though Olive terrified her and she hated it there, especially at night?

Not perfectly, but yes. :) (it's hard trying to reread without pictures, curse you Photobucket ;___;. I think I found it, though. It's chapter 19, right?) But it's things like that that make her fantastic, because she's stronger than she knows and good and does the right thing even when it terrifies her.

Exactly, ladies don't need to kick ass to BE kick ass.

I could rage about misogyny and Gwen-hate and why Torchwood fandom is the worst fandom ever, but I won't do that in S_T's journal.

Though more broadly, a lot of the hatred towards Gwen comes from her perceived cock-blocking of a popular ship, Jack/Ianto. Despite the fact that Jack/Ianto was canon until the day Ianto died, and Gwen/Jack never went past UST, but there's fandom logic for you. Jack and Gwen definitely had a non-physical love affair going on, though, and this was understandably seen as being unfair to Ianto. Here's the deal, though: Jack is almost never blamed for his jerk-ass behavior. Gwen, however, is reviled for having feelings she could, but never does, act on; she's in love with Jack, but she's in love with her boyfriend/future husband too, and she's chosen him over Jack more than once. Jack is the one who won't let go, and Gwen is blammed for this.

And from what I've seen, this isn't uncommon: women are most often blamed for ruining relationships (whether she did or not), absolving the man of responsibility. How could he resist that evil homewrecker's vagina? Or something. I think sarahtales put it best, that "We're suspicious of girls when they're wanted." And if she is desirable, she's blamed for it in a way men often aren't.

[tyralily.livejournal.com]

Wait, people hate Gwen. That is just wrong.

But this thing just reminds me of one of my mom's characters (She's a writer). Same character that one a kick-ass heroine contest.

[autumnparanoia.livejournal.com]

Hang on a minute.

"she's bitch and a whore"?

Whore? When she co-stars with JACK? Please. And yet he is sexy and fangirled over, while Gwen is simply called a whore, despite the face that he's slept with pretty much EVERYONE and she tries to remain faithful to her fiance?

Human logic makes my head hurt.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I'm certainly very interested in seeing all sorts of different women in stories. That's one of the reasons I love the novels of Margaret Laurence. All of her protagonists are female and both strong and weak in their own way. She also covers some very "stereotypical" types, like the housewife and the spinster, and gives them an honest, sympathetic portrayal, while not shying away from the ugly parts. Basically, she rocks.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, since I'll be showing a certain well-known womanly type in my chapter about Jaxy Rai (which I'm working on now).

Also, I'm not really here to defend Ophelia (which is why I didn't bring her up on my own, though I appreciate your defense of her). People are more than welcome to dislike her, and I can certainly see why people would dislike her. "Depressive" and "fearful/worrisome" are not traits that people are generally drawn to, and I wanted to stay true to her Maxis backstory and also explore the depression side of things (for a number of reasons, it's important to me that she not bounce back and "get over it" so easily). Paired with the fact that her positive traits are decidedly feminine and passive (calm, kind, and nurturing come to mind), then it makes sense that she isn't going to appeal to everyone.

That said, I do think she's a pretty good example of what we're talking about.

One more point: Circe will most certainly not crack because she has "too much" power. I am sure she would laugh at the concept of ever having too much power or money. If she has a downfall, it won't be that.