Strange Tomato (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
strangetomato) wrote2009-08-26 11:02 am
strangetomato) wrote2009-08-26 11:02 am
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Discussion: Strong Female Characters
This is mostly for will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).
In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.
The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)
Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.
ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.
Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.
will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for beyondheroism__ and smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.
The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)
Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.
ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.
Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.
no subject
Now she's found her balance, is more or less happy, and is in a relationship with Mike, the resident asshole (she went in knowing he was an ass, and he's not abusive towards her, so I guess as long as it's working for her?), she's getting blasted for being a whore. WHAT. (At least the creator has her back.)
edit: let's have a proper response, yes?
It's still very much a minefield when a character isn't "straight, white, and male" since it's still expected to be the relatable norm. It's ass, but its still the nature of the beast. Everyone who falls outside of that box is going to be looked at more critically. A favorite example is Anya from Buffy. By the end of the series , I was getting fed up with how genocidal the show was (I know, I'm weird). (Spike,) Anya and Clem (and Lorne on Angel) were pretty much token demons- they weren't evil, but the main cast still thought "evil" went hand in hand with "demon".
Fans NEVER accepted anything Anya did. When she sang that she was good with math, people bitched because when she was recently humanized (3-4 years earlier!) she said she was failing math. Nevermind she had been a demon for 1,100 years and in the interim discovered that she loved money. Doesn't it make sense for a budding capitalist to make an effort to learn math?! No one cared that she'd only been human for a short time and was in a constant state of culture shock. No one cared that she was the oldest regular character and treated her like she was younger than Buffy.
No point, just bitching.