A whole lot of isms, but mostly heterosexism.

[strangetomato]

Given that this Sunday, May 17, is the International Day Against Homophobia, it's interesting that I was recently called out for being heterosexist. To my face, by a lesbian. I was pretty embarrassed. (Not that it would be any better to have this pointed out in another way, but I felt pretty careless.)



I had designed a quick little poster for a community Seniors Appreciation Day event, and all of the clip art used on it (yeah, go ahead and laugh at the clip art, but my job isn't as a designer - there's no time or money to make it nicer) featured elderly male/female couples.

In my defense, I was lucky to find anything that showed seniors being happy and doing anything besides sitting on a couch at home (no joke - many of them actually featured graveyards). We wanted dancing and eating and having fun AND elderly people, and I barely found that. There's literally nothing that tackles ageism AND heterosexism. It seems like you can only tackle one of these issues at a time (though there was a little racial diversity in there, I'll give them that much).

It's amazing how easy it is to be heterosexist. Unlike homophobia, you do it by default, by doing nothing. I like to think I'm pretty good about this stuff, because I actually think about it most of the time and even point it out to other people when they say something that assumes the world to be straight (you get mixed results when you suggest that someone's baby might actually grow up to be gay, let me warn you, true though it may be). So if I can do it by accident, then you can too. If you're constantly vigilant about it, then I salute you, but it can be tough to get it right all the time.

To relate this back to sims, it's got me to thinking about portrayals of LGBT characters in sim stories, just like any other media. I've read some interesting articles and posts on this topic recently (relating to different fandoms, but same difference), and it really is worth considering. I try to write about characters first and foremost, and so they have flaws and make bad decisions and all that, but I do try to be conscious of the messages my stories are sending, whether intended or not.

As for homophobia, I did make a very conscious decision to include that in my sim world, as much as I love the idea of a world without it. My sim world simulates the world I live in, and that includes most of its problems too. Also, there's no way to examine something if you ignore its existence, and I'm very interested in exploring gender/sexuality in my characters. It's something of a theme in my story, I suppose, if you want to put that much weight on it (which is probably a bit of a stretch).

So how do you feel about this as a creator or reader of sim stories? Feel free to discuss it in the comments, if you like.

Also, go ahead and critique the way I do things in relation to this topic, if you want to, so I can further consider and examine them. I know I could always fall back on "it's just a sim story," but I don't actually believe that excuses me in any way. I'm putting content out into the world, so I'm engaging in the way things are portrayed, even though it's a small and very specialized audience.



 

Comments

[aledstrange.livejournal.com]

It's amazing how easy it is to be heterosexist. Unlike homophobia, you do it by default, by doing nothing.
The problem is when you (general you) get accused, directly or by insinuations, of being discriminatory/homophobic, by someone who doesn't know you, for doing nothing, as not being constantly mentioning it.

For example I live in Miami, and there's a huge LGBT movement here specially in some areas (not so much in other parts of fl tho). I have lots of gay/lesbians friends and so does almost everyone I know. Same I see with my daughter and her friends, who are in high school, where they have a strong lgbt acceptance in general too.

Of course there is always close minded people between adults and bullying between teens, but in general for us its a pretty normal matter, so on that sense, mentioning it too much may sound slightly discriminatory too. (and I mean, mentioning, as in it pointing it out for being a difference, not as in normally talking about the topic)

As for sim stories, guess what each one lives and sees in RL influences the way of writing and personal take on the characters. I personally enjoy a bit more of fantasy and surrealism on a sim story (and all stories in general, for that matter), but for me for example, a high number of same sex couple on a game isn't that unrealistic either (I just have to go to the beach to actually see high numbers of same sex couple in RL anyways).

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm speaking more about heterosexism than homophobia there. I can be heterosexist be simply not including any reference to LGBT in something, and thus rendering them invisible. Or saying something that portrays heterosexuality to be the default. I don't see anything wrong with someone objecting to it. It was totally in her right to point out that I was negating her existence by not including her, I think. It's just not always easy to keep on top of those things.

I see what you mean about it being a non-issue for you if it's a part of your everyday life, but I assume you don't go around and never mention it, right? That's the difference. It obviously comes up on it's own in casual reference, like mentioning someone's boyfriend, etc. That's different than the example of the poster, I think.

And yeah, mentioning it too much. I'm not sure about that side of it, but I suppose it could make people uncomfortable to make a big deal of it, but to me it's like feminism in that people feel the need to make a big deal about it until is actually a non-issue, and we're not quite there yet (society as a whole).

I don't see anything wrong with people choosing to populate their sim world however they want either. It's a great way to explore those things for themselves and to make it reflect their reality or a reality they would like to see.

I do feel a little uncomfortable about the tone of some of the portrayals of gay sims in legacies and stories at times (more legacies than stories), I must admit. I'm wary of insensitive portrayals, where it's obviously a novelty and the butt of a joke (I'm not too fond of the whole "lol buttsex" thing, for example). I'm not saying there's no room for humour here, but some of it does feel disrespectful to me (and that's a personal reaction).

[smjoshsims.livejournal.com]

Firstly, this topic is very, very interesting.

Secondly, the lesbian is very very fresh for calling you heterosexist- which I didn't even know existed but I am aware of now. It's weird that by simply not choosing to include a same sex couple you suddenly become a villain since that's the norm EVERYWHERE- and you can't hurt people's delicate sensibilities by showing a same sex couple, EVER. (And plus, how could they expect you to show a same sex couple using old people? Don't they know that gay people don't age?!?!

As a creator and reader of Sim Stories, I don't think about it, to be honest. I see characters as characters, I don't think about their sexuality. For example, Franny is FRANNY, when describing him I never mention that he's gay. It's just not important to me. I can see why people would notice if NO ONE was gay though.

On a random note, I always roll for my Sims sexuality using ACR- even if they're legacy heirs. *shrug*

Interesting topic, soul.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

Glad you think so. I thought it was pretty interesting (especially being on the side that's being criticized this time).

Yeah, well she's one of those Level 10 feminists (where I'm still working on enough exp. points to get to like Level 4 or something like that :P). That's the crowd I run with these days, so my awareness level has gone WAY up.

It's not so much that I was a villain. In fact, she wasn't nasty about it at all. She said something like, "these are pretty heterosexual images" and went on to talk about ways to cut down on the heterosexism a little. I was just thrilled to find pics of elderly people dancing, so I hadn't even thought about it (and neither did my boss).

You do bring up an interesting point there. I'm not sure it's a good idea to show obviously gay couples on the poster either, because then it would instantly be read as a "gay event" by most people. She actually suggested showing a more mixed group that was less couple-centric as a compromise. It does make sense because the older we get, the less men there are. The event will be mostly single women, either way.

How nice to be young forever. LUCKY. XD

I think your approach is a good one. You can see the characters sexuality without ever mentioning it, and that avoids the whole issue of treating it in a certain way. I like to directly refer to it because I like to explore it in my writing and have the characters explore it too, but that does leave me wondering if I'm ever being insensitive about it. I'm sure someone could react that way. There's almost always someone who won't like what you're doing.

I do that too for all sims born in-game and all the townies/NPCs. Anyone who doesn't need to be one way or another for the story is left to chance.

Thanks. I like a good discussion every now and then.

[allysonsimming.livejournal.com]

Hm. This is a really interesting topic, I think. Like you said, it's so easy to fall into the trap of simply not considering a certain group in our everyday actions.

However, I think the person who called you out was kind of out of line. Unlike homophobia, heterosexism is more just simply not thinking -- there was obviously nothing intentionally offensive about your community poster! I think in this case, a simple, "Gee it's a shame that there aren't any same-sex couples on the poster" would have sufficed.

That being said, I also think a lot of people get way, way too worked up about their groups not being properly represented. Obviously it's important to have people of all different races and backgrounds represented in popular culture, but at the same time, it's simply not possible to represent every social group ALL of the time. In a situation like this, it just really doesn't seem like that big of a deal -- it's a poster for a community event, not a TV show that continually ignores the existence of homosexuality.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

I kind of agree and disagree with this? Like, I definitely don't think I would have called Strange heterosexist just because she didn't think about homosexuality and equal representation this one time, but the poster itself probably does come across as heterosexist.

And I agree that yeah, it is impossible to represent every single group, but I can imagine that if you belong to a minority that is constantly not represented it will eventually get to you. I think the poster DOES matter - even if it's not a HUGE deal. The little things are meaningful.

Also, what I'd really love to see is homosexuality dealt with in cartoons or kids television. I know that seems sort of random, but it's really something that you don't get to see and it'd be nice for kids to be presented with openly gay characters to relate to. :\

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

I think it's good that she mentioned it, but I definitely wouldn't call you heterosexist. Yes, you overlooked sexuality this one time, but you're usually very aware of it. I try to be, but I do definitely default to heterosexism most of the time, which I'm trying to work on.

Haha, I'd be totally cool if my son/daughter ended up being gay or bisexual or anything like that. But I'd also probably worry about it too, especially depending on where he/she grew up. If I were where Ale is, I probably wouldn't even think about it, but I grew up in a very conservative area and I know what it can do to kids growing up. There's actually a documentary that was made about Jim Wheeler who went to our high school and was an artist and a poet and also he was gay. He ended up committing suicide a few years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_in_Bold

http://www.jimwheeler.org/

Since then, things have definitely changed. In my Freshman year of high school, they instated a Gay-Straight Alliance which has really done wonders for the school. So things are getting better, but it's still good to keep talking about sexuality and gender and heterosexism.

I do think, at the end of the day, the best way to approach gay characters is to approach them as characters. They're people first and their sexuality should not be their defining trait.

That's actually why I love how you write. There's so much variety and everyone is written in ways put their character and their habits above their sexuality. Franny is Franny. He's not the token gay. Same with Beau or Ripp or Jaxy.

[madame-ugly.livejournal.com]

I'm flip flopping here. I'm not sold on the "heterosexist" thing. So if you don't go around making sure you've gone to great pains to include any and every race/religion/gender/sexual orientation. . .see where I'm going with this. . .then your automatically "anti" or "ist" toward the one you forgot?

It's like you have to get pre-offended at everything to make sure you don't accidentally step on a toe you may not have even known existed.

And in the case of the poster you were making, did the woman who brought up the "heterosexism" stop to think that maybe the old folks coming to the event might be offended by same sex images? (yes, I realize in the great utopia we all strive to live in, they shouldn't but let's be realistic) It's kind of a cop out but when you're dealing with folks of an older generation, they just might not be that open to seeing two little old lesbians partying down. AND, there's a time and a place for "speaking out" and making a statement on a poster for an old people shin dig just might not be the right place to wave the gay rainbow flag.

I guess that take on it (the choose your battles thing) comes into play with sim stories. If I wanted to make a statement, I'd write a story that did just that. But when I'm writing sim stories, I don't want to have to work that hard, to educate readers about real world issues. And, let's be honest, most folks reading sim stories aren't the ones that need preached to anyway.

I'm also in smjoshsim's "I don't think about it" camp. I don't think about a sims orientation until something in game makes me think about it. I will admit that once I've type cast a sim as one persuassion or another it's weird for me to see them any other way *eyes Pascal Curious*.

(this whole topic got me to thinking, too, that you just don't see a lot of sim stories where the "wrong" side of an issue is shown as "right"--like a character that will NEVER change their stripes--even a die hard "I hate X" character always comes around a bit. Makes me kind of keen to write a truly non-sympathetic main character, someone you really dislike but who you still want to read about).

[allysonsimming.livejournal.com]

So if you don't go around making sure you've gone to great pains to include any and every race/religion/gender/sexual orientation. . .see where I'm going with this. . .then your automatically "anti" or "ist" toward the one you forgot?

It's like you have to get pre-offended at everything to make sure you don't accidentally step on a toe you may not have even known existed.

This is what I was trying to communicate, but you did so much more eloquently. :)

[ikichi.livejournal.com]

Well, I think a better example of "heterosexism" is the first one I was exposed to, courtesy of Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For.

Toni and Clarice are about to have their commitment ceremony (at least a decade before their son is born), and the staff of Madwimmin books are discussing what gifts their giving. Mo (anti-marriage) makes several disparaging remarks about her friends' choice. Jezanna calls her on it, "Mo, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were being heterosexist!"

Mo sputters, "Heterosexist?! Me?!"

"You're behaving just like you've been programmed to: Two women love each other, and want to celebrate that love publicly, and you bash them for it."

It's more of mindfulness than being overly pc. And heck, I've done it too, and I'm queer- by assuming someone was straight, or that they would/wouldn't be into something because of gender expectations. And you'd think as often I've been the only black chick at a goth club I'd no better than that.

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

I don't think I have too much to say on the topic of real life heterosexism, except that yes, it's very, very easy to be so without even thinking about it, because of the society we live in. Also, absolute constant vigilance is difficult unless you care really, REALLY deeply about something, and while you can strongly support something you're usually not at that level of REALLY deep care unless you're part of the offended group yourself (as such I'm probably quicker to notice sexism than heterosexism, etc).

And yes, depictions of elders actually living life are kind of hard to come by, I can certainly see your problem there. Grey hair = almost dead, RIGHT? Ugh.

As for sims, well... I do have some same sex couples in my game, and I'm trying to have more, but I very often fall into the trap of most of my sims being heterosexual - purely because I love breeding them together so much. :p I really like pairing sims together and seeing how their offspring turns out, and well, if the sims are gay that's not going to happen. I could use that pregnancy-for-all hack, but... I don't know, it just makes things a little too unrealistic. Reproductive abilities is the one big thing that really IS a significant difference between males and females. Also, if all men could have babies, that would make alien abductions less awesome.

I don't know what it is about me and my obession with breeding sims, I just like seeing the genetics mix, I guess, in a bit of a mad scientist manner. I don't even like most kids very much in real life (this is very often a fault of their parents, though), and don't know if I ever want any of my own. :p

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

Also, mostly unrelated, May 17th is also my country's (Norway) national day. Hee.

[wtsims.livejournal.com]

This may not be a popular opinion, but oh well:

Expecting people to go out of their way to make sure that everything they do depicts some percentage of (insert minority here) is just overwhelming PC bullshit. That's doubly true when it comes to a situation wherein the person in question is working with someone else's source material. If anyone out there is 'heterosexist' (and how I hate that term, let me tell you), it's the makers of the clip art...

...but like it or not, heterosexuality is the norm. That's what you call it when a large majority is one way and not the other. And that means that if you're depicting a small group or working with other people's source material or doing something on the fly, it's quite likely that you just aren't going to get a diverse group for that particular depiction.

If it were a pattern in someone's behavior (always white always straight always pretty whatever) then calling them on it is one thing. But as a one-time thing? My reaction would be to tell the person to stop being so sensitive.

My biggest problem with the notion that all depictions must include some minorities is that it tends to reduce it to "Make sure all the different people are there", which emphasizes the 'different', aka 'not like us'. Doing it over time is more natural and tends to shore up the idea that 'they' are actually a part of 'us'. Which is, I believe, how it should be.

To bring it to Sims stuff: I tend to let ACR and my Sims decide who is attracted to who. I leave turn-ons at their default (except for tweaking in existing relationships). I let ACR or heart-farting pick the gender and lightning bolts pick the person as a rule (though for story reasons I sometimes do something else). In short, I tend to let it work how it does in the real world... what people like is what they like. I did deliberately make the decision to generally have my populations blind to gender preference (including installing the same-sex marriage hack) because in general I'd prefer to just have it work that way, but for story reasons I'd put in homophobia or worries about it if I felt it were appropriate to the setting (and, in fact, I have). I don't go out of my way to make sure some percentage of every generation or whatever is gay, or that some percentage of my townies are black, or whatever; I let randomness take care of it. I even make custom townies pseudo-randomly (pseudo- because there are some things I tend not to do, like skin 4 green-eyed blondes with perfect untweaked face 1 templates named Viktor Chen). Diversity is good; artificially mathematically-derived diversity is silly.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

You sound like my SO, who has no time for extremely PC thinking as a rule, even when he agrees with the concept. I agree that nobody should have their head ripped off over it (and it wasn't at all that harsh in my case), but I still think this stuff is worth considering.

It's easy to roll your eye at things like spelling womyn with a y, but without those actions to that extreme, we'd probably still be calling it mankind instead of humankind. I don't think I should have to make everything inclusive to absolutely everyone all the time, but it's more about harm reduction for me. It's just as easy for me to ask someone if they are dating "anyone" than to ask if they have a boy/girlfriend, so I do think behaviour like that can (and should) be easily changed.

I've also gotten myself tangled up when it comes to trans people once or twice, and I'm very much someone who's not down with gendered thinking. It can be hard to always be perfectly inclusive. Overall, though, I think it's worth being aware of it and doing what you can do to be respectful.

[crushthecamera.livejournal.com]

One of the things that I find genuinely upsetting in Sims 2 fandom is when sim stories and legacies actually put up warnings for gay sims. As if it were exceptional. As if it were Other. I don't think anyone's doing it out of genuine malice - like you say, it's so unconscious that even people who have had a lot of space to work on this mess up, because it's part of the culture right now, and it's so subtly beaten into our heads every day of our lives that we don't even register what we're doing until it's pointed out. (And then we do the Oh-Shit-How-Did-I-Not-See-That!? dance.) That's the magic of kyriarchy!

The conflict-avoidance is strong in me, but I often think I should leave a comment saying something like, "I hope you're going to warn for heterosexual sims, too," and I think I have to suck it up and start saying something. I mean, it's not a huge thing, in the scheme of things, but it's the little grains of sand that add up to a beach that stretches on for centuries, you know? The little things are what inures us to the point where the big things, the horrific things, have a place to happen.

Personally when I started out on my own story I pretty much went with, "It's a happy fluffy utopia where no one is a jerk!" because I just didn't feel like dealing with it in my happy melodrama fun time. But as I kept going I slowly realised that, nope, it's not going to happen that way. Because there were little things, little hints, and as I dug deeper it became so much more messed up, more like out here. It's like background radiation that seeps into everything and affects my people in such seemingly small ways, but it's constant, and it adds up, and they fight against it admirably, but it wears them down. It makes them brittle. I don't know if I'll ever tackle it head-on in the story itself, but it's there, in the background, informing everything.

...Anyway. I think I've only commented here once before, because, uh. I'm sort of intimidated by you because I think you're pretty neat. I just wanted to say thank you for opening up such a discussion here, and to wave my little "Me, too!" flag.

[leskuh.livejournal.com]

One of the things that I find genuinely upsetting in Sims 2 fandom is when sim stories and legacies actually put up warnings for gay sims.

XD I did that when I was younger! I don't anymore because it doesn't matter to me and if it matters to you well... oh well.

[showercapfrog.livejournal.com]

Ack. It's difficult to counter several stereotypes at once (Old people are happy? And do things other than sit on the couch and yell at kids on their lawns?), but I do think that this isn't your fault.
It is difficult to get it right all the time, and I try to remind people too (if I think that they won't kill me for doing it).

Generally, I don't really like the way that a lot of sim stories treat homosexuals, or queer issues in general. However, I don't think this is restricted to just Sims - this is a problem in a lot of fanfiction. It can be well addressed at times, but the majority of stories either a) do not address the issue at all (not necessarily bad) or b) are all "LOL BUTTSECKS".

I think that the way you've portrayed the homophobia is fairly realistic, even though Tank is not particularly bad, as far as some homophobia goes. I also like that you've kind of addressed some other queer/intersex style issues with Stella as well.
I think it's difficult for a story to address gay issues without being like "LOOK A GAY I AM TOTALLY GROUNDBREAKING" or having other similar issues that I talked about above, and I think that you addressing queer issues with secondary characters has been quite effective.

We always called it 'heteronormativity' but heterosexist works well too.

I don't know how well I expressed myself here, but I hope you get my drift :D.

Long reply is long

[ikichi.livejournal.com]

"Heterosexism" is a curious thing- even by having the word exist is a form of it; it's still implying (or flat out saying) that heterosexuality is the "norm, even though a "norm" in sexuality is a laughable concept at best. ("Heteronormative" is another concept that irks me to no end: if you're raised with the expectation that you'll fall in love and marry, why is it *hetero* normaltive if you marry a person of the same (or trans) gender? It's just f-ing normalitive, isn't it?! [granted, this is the same thing that pisses me off about "white trash"- it implies that the same behaviours are acceptable and expected in other races, but how dare a white person sink so low]).

Ugh, too many digressions. Sorry.

I haven't shown too much of the world at large in my story yet, because I've been focusing on the family. But, I've already shown Vid as being a bit heterosexist. He loves his nephew, and always looks out for him, but he's shown a fairly rigid idea of gender. (And all in one sentence! ::dork::)

Like you, I'm a fan of a certain degree of hermaphroism in aliens. (I especially wanted to explore that to become a better trans-ally- it still bothers me that situations like admission to the Michigan Women's Music Festival still gives me pause. My 1st reaction was, oh course let them in! they're women! But then I started thinking of the activities there, and how I would feel seeing a penis in that environment. I was torn- she has the right to keep her penis if she wants to, and I would be find dating a woman who had made that choice. But there are times I simply do not want to see a penis (which is most of the time, frankly), and it feels like a loose- loose.)

I'm sure as the story grows, I'll have characters that are less accepting/ jerks for whatever reason, but there's too much damn hate in the world already, and I'd like a bit of shelter from it (queer poc here). I'll let it occur naturally, but I'm not going to go out of my way to engineer it. (ex. Vid- wow, it seems like I'm picking on him, eh?- has never really been comfortable that Pascal's ex/best friend Abheijet's a full time drag queen. It just screws with his head on so many levels, among them the idea of his brother dating someone who owns a bra.)

I've done the searches for art as well, and I've found a lot of good stuff at getty images. Why not invite your co-worker to help you find more variety?

The younger of the 2 boys (not related) that I sit for is, at this moment, "pretty gay". He's never expressed an interest in boys (and in fact has stated that he plans to marry me), and loves a lot of the traditional boy things like cars, and trains. I also have a pic of him at school in a purple princess dress and a huge cheesey smile (his folks have a copy of it on the fridge), and we had a mani-pedi day when I painted his finger and toe nails yellow at his request. (And, I've caught him being a bit of a bitch to other kids a few times). His dad is a bit weirded out by it, but as a whole his parents are just letting him be himself, knowing that the things he loves at 4 may not matter when he's 24. And really, what's the difference to a 4 year old between dressing up as a pilot and as a princess? I've only ever discussed it with his mom, and neither of us came out and said, "yea, he's probably gay"- mostly because I wasn't sure how she'd react. Though I did say he'd be fine either way, he's a great kid and insanely cute- he'll have to beat everyone off with a stick, anyway.

As far as critique goes, I'd have to go back and re-read, since I don't think anything's caught my eye in a negative way. Honestly (wow, is it on my brain lately or what?) the Ripp/Stella arc was a leap *away* from heterosexism. I think it counts for a lot that you didn't go on the offensive and refuse to hear her, instead choosing to really look at yourself and your work.

Re: Long reply is long

[wtsims.livejournal.com]

The thing about the term normal is that it doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means, at least in this context. Normal means usual. Some people have this connotation that it means 'good and right', but that's an interpretation I personally am trying to dissuade people I know from. Unusual is not bad. It's just different.

Other things that are not normal: genius+ IQs, extreme height, AB- blood. Nothing wrong with any of those things, but they do all fall outside the norm. I know precisely one person with AB- blood (that I know of). He's not normal in that regard; he is quite unusual. I know someone who has an IQ over 180; he is not normal in that regard. I know someone who is 7'1". He is not normal, except perhaps in a group of basketball players. (He does not, btw, play basketball.)

[inkspottedtea.livejournal.com]

While I agree with everything you've said - it's something that western culture seems to do by default; be heterosexist.

Is that girl srs? Even if there /were/ elderly homosexuals in that Senior Center ... do you think they are "out", or talk about being gay with their peers? It's one thing to jump on a cause like that, it's a complete 'nother to be a dick about something that is WORTHLESS. If you had put homosexual couples on that poster, can you imagine the shit storm those old people would've caused?

My god. What a stupid thing to be ~righteous~ about. I haaaaaate the gay community sometimes. It's why I never go to pride parades. Give me a Milk-esque riot anyday, sparkles and ~why can't we all get along~? So not my scene.

[ikichi.livejournal.com]

I hear what you're saying about any of elders there being closeted if they *were* gay, but consider this: One of the things that irks me in the community is the invisibility of older LGBTs. Everything we have today, is because of their sacrifices, and every time I hear someone bitch about someone older than 30 being in the club/whatever I want to smack their ungrateful selves.

Personally, I wonder why the clipart "needs" to be couples in the first place- as if people have no value if they're not in a relationship. (I'm not blaming Strange, it's hard to find things depicting elders as people). And it's worth exploring why when we see a male and female in an activity together we assume they're a couple instead of one of the dozens of other relationships they could be.

[snootcb.livejournal.com]

Whew. I think maybe calling you "heterosexist" is a bit of an overreaction in this situation, but if I was constantly discriminated against at the level that gay/bi/trans people are an a daily basis, even if it isn't on purpose, I'd probably be way more sensitive to this kind of thing. I tend to just not think about it- which means that I generally don't make a big deal over homosexuality, whether positively or negatively, and I think that obsessing over it (whether positively or negatively) can be more often be harmful than helpful. But it DOES need attention, if only to get to the point where we don't even pay attention to it any more. Does that make any sense? We just have to find that happy medium where a person's sexuality is no big deal, but people of all sexualities are fairly and commonly represented. But, ultimately, I'm more upset that there were so few images of happy, healthy elderly people (of all genders, orientations, races, etc) for your use. It does seem like most depictions of old folks are somewhat morbid or just plain boring. I have hope that this will change as a significant bulk of the population (in Western countries at least) ages in the coming years and major industries realize that their target demographic is suddenly a lot older than they used to be.

As far as homosexuality and TS2- I'm happy that they left it up to the player in the first place, you know? Like not all Sims have to be hetero but you have an option to do what you want with them on that front. When I first started playing, nearly all of my Sims were hetero because that's my "default" setting and I just never thought about it (I was obsessed with breeding the little pixels, and the easiest way to do that with a vanilla game is make everyone hetero and have them hump like rabbits). I was so darn happy when I discovered that there are mods out there that set the gender preference for you, because now I have a far more realistic population AND I still don't have to put any thought into it. It's just weird to me to consciously think, "so-and-so should be gay/straight/whatever". The only time I change what has been randomly set is when I've gotten too used to thinking of a certain Sim in a certain way thanks to reading good stories or previous play sessions (Pascal and Nervous, for example).

I'm still not totally into the same-sex preg thing. To me, sperm + sperm or egg + egg =/= baby (although supposedly there is a lot of research being done on that egg + egg thing). Supernatural alien pollination, supernatural botanical self-fertilization, adoption, or surrogate pregnancy = baby. In other words (like meetme2theriver), unless there's a good supernatural reason for it, I prefer for my non-hetero Sims to have children in some way besides pregnancy, and (including supernatural) there are lots of options to choose from. I'd feel very differently if WooHoo was the only option. But it doesn't bother me when others choose to do something different with their game or in their story. Not everyone chooses to address the issue in the same way, and some choose not to address it at all.

As for the marriage thing, well, I'm actually holding out for a "joining"-for-all mod. If civil unions and marriage are truly equal in all but name (as they are in TS2), then I see no problem having all consenting adults be allowed legal civil unions and leaving the whole "marriage" thing up to the religious institutions. You want to be declared man and wife in your homophobic church of choice? Fine, but you have to get a civil union certificate from the courthouse to make it official. Yeah, I know that's not a popular opinion, but I get so tired of some religious conservatives acting like they have a patent on the term "marriage". I say we let them have it and maybe then we'll have a better chance of keeping church and state separate, yes? I know there are other countries that do this, so why does my beloved US of A fail so hard at basic civil rights sometimes?

[cameoflage.livejournal.com]

Mm. I do agree that having unisex civil unions with the legal rights of marriage and then giving the term 'marriage' over to churches would solve the problem... but the issue with that is that people would still say 'marriage' most of the time in casual discourse (since already-ingrained culture is damn near impossible to force changes upon), which would probably undermine that attempt at separation.

[naughtydolphin.livejournal.com]

It's a tricky topic to discuss without someone being offended, but most delicate topics are. Are there disabled people, fat people, people of different ethnicity also pointing out how restrictive the view is of the poster? Is it just elderly, slim, healthy white people that are allowed here? Is that what the poster is advertising? I highly doubt it.

I think making the jump from two old people dancing to being "heterosexist" is a bit of a big one. If you're looking to find exclusions or being offended, you'll find it. Most people I'm sure will hardly notice the clip art, or it will just register as old people dancing without any political agenda attached.

In regards to my sims, I usually let the game decide what their preferences are. In a legacy, I don't change what they are at all (I like that testingcheats option that tells you what their gender preference is), I have hacks that lets everyone get pregnant, so it's not an issue. I also like to let them choose their own partners, because it's about them, not me! For stories, adult sims I create usually have their preference picked by my, in game sims I use have what they came with. Teens and YAs are more fluid in their preferences, because experimentation is normal. But I usually let them decide what they want. One of my characters at the moment is starting to feel confused about her feelings for her (female) best friend. Said best friend constantly farts hearts for her, though my character doesn't know that, of course.

In another one of my stories, gay acceptance was a big deal, and it's a current plot that has making a fertility potion that will enable anyone to get pregnant available to everyone. I've also added alien, lycan, plantsim, vampire, etc acceptance struggles into the mix as well. That also means there's some who are against it, and that does come into it too.

I like sim stories to reflect reality a bit, both the good and bad.

[simgarooop.livejournal.com]

Oh goodie, I hope I can express my opinion without making things confusing. It is hard for me to make an argument regarding this topic in particular, more so if I have to do it in English.

Frankly, that woman is waaaay to sensitive. In your place, I wouldn't take her words to heart, because seriously, the fact that she's "offended" because you didn't include gay couples in a poster for a Senior event reeks of politically correct nonsense. Or, as I like to think, trying too hard to see the "glass half empty".

Did you include a mexican elder in your poster? Or an elder with special educational needs? If you didn't, and following that woman's mentality, I shall be offended too and consider you a "Canadianist" and a "Not-Special-Needs-Ist" because your poster does not represent my country and the people I work for.

Really, people can get offended by anything if they try too hard to see the wrongs on ANYTHING around them.

I understand that the LGBT community has fought for a long time to enjoy the same rights and privileges of those of us who are heterosexual. Heck, I used to make fun at the DSM-III, (Manual of Mental Disorders) because it included homosexuality as a mental disease (not anymore). I'm glad for the battles they have won in the recent years and they deserve to be heard and included by the governments and society in general.

I'm all for the inclusion of the minorities, like people with special educational needs. That's my job, after all, so I know how hard it is to make people accept those who are different. You have to break huge barriers of ignorance and fear to motivate the society in general to understand and accept them.

But that doesn't mean all the minorities HAVE to be included everywhere, even if the situation or circumstances do not require that. For example, your poster was focused on the elder community in general. Period. You were not considering the race, beliefs, sexual orientation, political views, special needs, etc. of ALL the elder people in the world. I'm afraid your poster would be HUGE if you had to include all those groups of people.

TL;DR: It is good to be aware that there are people who are different from the rest of us. It is great to promote the acceptance of minorities. But there's also a fine line between acceptance and open-mind, and just plain stupid PC. In this case, I think this woman crossed that line and her comment was out of context.

More tl:dr

[simgarooop.livejournal.com]

Now, as for Sim Stories, I've really enjoyed the way you've developed characters like Beau and Frances. You know why? Because they are BEAU and FRANCES and not just GAY 1 and GAY 2. Their sexual orientation is just another of the many different characteristics that make them unique, not the only one. It'd be pretty boring if you only focused on that side of them. It's just like how you handle Ripp's horny side. Sure, he thinks with his "woo-hoo" at times, but he's also concerned about his insecurity issues, his relationship with his brothers, etc., etc., so there's more to him as a character than just being a walking libido :P.

In my case, I admit I don't write homosexual characters. I'm aware of that and I know that will make me seem like a heterosexist, but there's a reason for that. i was born in a very chauvinist country and I grew up in a very traditional family with strong beliefs against homosexuality. You don't want to listen to the discussions I have with my paternal family when we touch that topic O_o.

I like to think that, despite my deeply traditional personality and education, I'm also an open minded person. It hasn't been easy to learn and understand the existence of gay people. That, I have to admit. When I first learned about it when I was 14, I was very confused.

I also don't know many gay people, and most of them are online friends. So, I haven't had direct experiences with their community. It doesn't help that in Mexico, it's very rare to see a gay couple being openly affective in public.

Hence, I don't write about gay characters frequently, because I don't want to stereotype or disrespect them. I'm afraid that my ignorance in the matter would make me write something unrealistic that could upset them. The same applies for any other minority I don't know much about.

I actually want to include a sim with special educational needs or disabilities for a long time, but I'm hesitant too, even if I DO know about the topic. Words are powerful weapons, and I don't want to hurt or offend someone if I'm not careless. What I'm doing with Johnny is a very tentative trial, and I'm afraid of screwing things up.

But be sure that when I finally develop a character from a minority, I'll try to make them as complete as possible. Their special situation will just be one of the many traits that will make them unique.

[pixelcurious.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to add -- most of what I would say would merely be echoing other, more articulate comments above. But I do want to say I don't think your poster, as you describe is, is heterosexist as much as perhaps heterocentric. Photographs of opposite-sex couples do not, inherently, say "This is normal and anything else is not normal."

The lack of available clip art depicting elderly same-sex couples does reflect a heterosexist bias in society, but your poster, taken as an individual thing, isn't heterosexist. At least not in my opinion.

[pixelcurious.livejournal.com]

Just as an aside... I can imagine the same criticism being leveled at my icon, for instance. To someone who doesn't know that Pixel and Bean are siblings, it looks like an opposite-sex couple about to kiss. Should I change my icon to avoid being targeted as heterosexist? :P

[tanathir.livejournal.com]

Since I'm a big supporter of same-sex marriage and I have that hack in my game, I tend to set up the Sim world as more accepting of homosexual couples. There will be a few Sims who don't like it, but those are more rare in my Sim world than in the real world.

Example: I made Tank Grunt gay, he's always been gay but never really let Buzz know. When Buzz finds out, he's shocked but more like a "why didn't I know my son better" feeling than a homophobic feeling. Buzz is more upset that Tank seemed to think he had to hide his sexual preference; there's some internal reflection I had in mind where Buzz basically comes to the conclusion that his son's choice in partner is a good one and it's more important to accept that than to lose his son over the issue. The boys thought they had to help Tank hide his gayness, because they thought Buzz would freak out. I'm really trying to go for character development for Buzz.

I seem to have a lot of same-sex couples in my game. Tank/Frances, Hector Tech/Tim Broke, etc. My favorite alien Anther Punnett has two mommies. I love that the game is set up so Sims start out with no sexual preference and that other Sims seem to not care about homosexual couples.

[melody-curious.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you there - it was another world, another time - People are more "enlightened" today about such things, but when they were younger one had to be carefull.

[petalbrook.livejournal.com]

So many other people have already commented and mine may be extraneous, but I still want to have my say.

I live in a rather conservative state/community. I haven't seen any obviously same sex couples since I was attending college courses a few years ago. Being heterosexist comes very naturally. That said, I'm not homophobic. I don't care about other people's sex lives. People are what they are. It doesn't make them any less of a person. I don't like sterotypes & name calling. I don't even call hetero people "straight" anymore because it implies that being homo/bisexual is less than normal.

In Petalbrook Heights (my sims community), there are two male/male marriages. All of the couples in Petalbrook were matched randomly. Oddly enough, none have shown themselves to be lesbians, but one of the teen girls is bi.

Only the first gen. sims have had their partners chosen for them. The rest are left up to fate & ACR. Even the townies are hetero/homo/bisexual by ACR's whim.

The only mpregs are by alien abduction. Homosexual couples will have children by opposite gender sims, through abduction, or through adoption.

[peasant007.livejournal.com]

My sims are heterosexual because I'm heterosexual (which is apparently becoming a rather unpopular choice if you believe everything the media tells you). We have a tendency to emulate the influences of real life when writing fiction. You know what? I'm okay with that.

Because here's the weird thing: I don't like watching my hetero sims kiss and make out all that much. Same goes for any homosexual sims that I have (for the record, I have Frances and Malcom as a couple in my main 'hood). Honestly, it has nothing to do with homophobia, and EVERYTHING to do with with not liking PDA; be it in real life or in simulated life.

I'm all for people choosing what gender they want to be with. It's their personal decision. And that is my point: it's their PERSONAL decision. Why should it be mine? Why on earth should I care what goes on behind closed doors? I had a gay friend back in the day and we had a deal: I don't give him details, and he doesn't give me details. Because it's PERSONAL!

Equal rights? Fine, more power to them. Awareness and sensitivity so there is less homophobic hate crimes? Awesome, the world has enough crime as it is. Announcing on the street corner who they are sleeping with and what they are doing behind closed doors? Too far, don't care, please stop telling me.

People should focus more on defining themselves by their merits and personality, not by their sexuality. Because quite frankly, nobody should CARE what so-and-so's sexuality is.

I think you, strange_tomato, have done an excellent job in portraying the 'realness' of everyday sexuality in S,HWC. F&B being gay is just a side bar, you focus more on their personalities and their relationship. They are 'people' (in quotes because they are really pixels) in your game. They are not defined by their sexuality.

I realize that this might be unpopular, but it really grinds my gears when accusations get thrown out because people, no matter how vigilant and sensitive they might be, get crucified for defaulting back to their own norms; even if it is only briefly.

[birdtooth.livejournal.com]

oh, jesus.

who is "announcing on the street corner who they are sleeping with and what they are doing behind closed doors"? oh, that's right. no one.