Discussion: Plastic surgery for premades

[strangetomato]

I know that this tends to be a somewhat controversial topic for fans of premade sims, and I don't normally make adjustments to their faces (unless I had a good story reason for doing so, such as a character getting actual plastic surgery), but I'm considering making a couple of exceptions. Dora Ottomas is one of them.

I aged Dora back to adult for a project I'm working on and since I had her in Bodyshop, I thought I'd examine her wonky facial structure in more detail. I have no problem with Dora's "ugly" as such, but I do have a problem with the way her face is way shorter than the dimensions of the rest of the templates and thus does not line up properly, she has a super long neck, etc. My one rule for sim creation is never to shift the face or the eyes up or down (the mouth and nose can move a little, within reason), as this results in a sim with features that will not play nice in any genetic combination with other faces. The Ottomas family is a perfect example of this, as are some of the other latter day EP sims.

(From left to right: unaltered Dora as an adult, altered adult Dora, and Face Two)

The middle Dora is the one I've been working on, with her original face on the left and Face Two on the right for comparison.  I've shifted the features up and down until they line up roughly with Face Two (and thus all of the templates, with maybe the exception of shorter Face One). I also made some minor changes to the shape of her features, including minor adjustments to the eye depth (in an attempt to fix that deep shadow and the way the brow crashes through her eyes), and a slight softening of her jawline. I think her face makes more sense like this, but she still looks like Dora. What do you think? I was hoping to make it so she could correctly wear eye makeup without it getting all distorted, but somehow that still doesn't work. I'm not sure what they did to her eyes to prevent that, but they did a pretty thorough job of it.

I've considered a similar shift for an adult Faith Goodie, moving her face down a couple of notches to match Face One. She's another premade sim with a shorter than normal face. You can barely notice the change, but she doesn't have the swan neck or the lack of forehead.

What are your thoughts on sim surgery? Do you consider these sorts of adjustments acceptable? Feel free to share your thoughts below, but please keep your discussion with each other respectful. I know many simmers can get pretty passionate about this issue, so let's be mindful of that.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I don't change my sims faces anymore (but I used to) and that's just because I'm playing for me, I don't show any pictures and I like to see the outcome. But for a story like this, I think it's OK to change them within reason, as long as they still bare a strong resemblance to the original character I don't see why you can't change them for your own purposes.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I think retaining the resemblance is the key here, but the amount of change that one can tolerate probably varies depending on the simmer. I'd be curious to know what someone who is a big Ottomas fan would think of the changes I'm playing around with.

[skellington7d.livejournal.com]

I think it's justifiable when it comes to sims where the face is distorted in a technical sense like this. I've been tempted to do surgery on unnaturally polygonal looking features, like Sharla's cheek dents or the way Chastity's eyes are bent in the middle. The problem isn't the attractiveness, it's that their faces are doing something a real face wouldn't do because real people aren't made of vertexes.

(Not that's it's a sin if someone does want to prettify sims to their own tastes with surgery, just not what I'd personally choose for my game.)

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I think it would bother me a little more in the case of something like eye shape, as this defines their look so much, though it makes sense in the cases you've mentioned for those exact reasons. Some of the things are just wonky, like the way Dora's brow and eye are fighting to occupy the same space, with brow poking through the eye. I can tolerate some pointy features, because we're dealing with pretty low poly faces here. Unless everyone's face is super rounded, they're going to have some sharp edges.

I think I'd also be more reluctant about doing this for a sim I was more attached to. I'm personally very reluctant to use anything but the Maxis skins (or slightly altered, like Ale's) because I feel the faces change too much with the different lip shapes, nose shapes, etc. But that's generally something that doesn't bother me much at all in other people's pictures. I just dislike it in my own game.

[cindyanne1.livejournal.com]

I used to do (and still do, although I play less) lots of sims surgery, but... like you say... also within reason. Usually it was with offspring and unfortunate genetic combinations from the parents. I would clone the parents in Sim PE, and then go into CAS in-game and make a clone family and several children until I found one where I got pleasing genetic combos from that particular set of parents. Then I would use ChristianLove's Sim Copy Mirror in-game to copy the clone family sim-child onto the actual sim child.

Interestingly, when I did this, I noticed it never changed the original sim child's eye color, nor did it affect that child's eventual ability to pass on recessive genetics from three or four generations before (even though the clone family's child wouldn't have had those recessive genes, having been made in CAS.)

I do not think copying the sim changed the actual genetic facial structure, but I'm not sure. I did notice that the original child, once I copied the clone family child onto it, did go on to have children with a facial structure similar to the child's new copied form. However, since I had used clones of the parents to make that child in the first place, it's possible the original child just passed on the more pleasing combinations of facial structure genes to their children.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

It's possible to do that facial copying in SimPE. There's a tutorial for it here, though sadly the images are missing now.

I haven't done that in my story hoods yet, but it's something I've considered doing if I was desiring a certain outcome in the blending of the parent's looks. The problem with me is I get too sentimental with sims and even when I wanted a certain combination of skintone, hair, and eye colour, I often can't bring myself to exit without saving to try again because I instantly feel bad for the poor unwanted sim baby. :P

[jeeks.livejournal.com]

I didn't really play my game giving sims plastic surgery, but I can see how (especially with the Ottomas) it would be ideal. I agree with what Queen-of-France said on your tumblr post, in that "if it makes sense" the adjustment is acceptable. It bothers me a bit that Cassandra and Alex look like Kaylynn and Goopy (who are fine, just not as Goth children). I plan to make a blend of Morty and Bella to get Cassie and Alex to look more like them (if someone doesn't already have them up for download). Meetme2theriver fiddled with the broken face templates as she got the megahood going. I have yet to put my hood together to see her face template for that family.

TL;DR: I never got to play the Ottomas before my hood broke, so I don't have that attachment to them and would be fine with you adjusting their face templates.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I'm a little torn on giving the Goth children plastic surgery like that. I think it's an interesting idea to make them match their parents, but they're also so well known by their TS2 looks that I feel those are the official looks and wouldn't want to mess with them. It sucks that they're just lazy template faces, but Pleasantview is full of those anyway (or with very minor adjustments). It's one of those things where I'd choose to say they turned after their grandparents, though this is sadly not a functional part of the game.

Haha. That's the thing about the Ottomas clan. I doubt anyone would really complain about a minor change to their faces, since many people aren't really attached to them and most people dislike their looks (but this is TS2 fandom, so who the hell knows).

[dinuriel.livejournal.com]

Of course it's acceptable. I realize that people do have attachments to the original premade faces, but ultimately, everyone has the right to do as they see fit in their own games.

Back in ancient history, I gave Hal Capp plastic surgery when he grew up to adult, since he had some of those borked facial features that look so drastically different in the adult stage (and I actually thought he had a pretty unique look as a teen). These days, I usually only fire up the game for pictures of my story Sims, but I have been chipping away at a Riverblossom Hills hood every once in a while. I haven't tweaked any of the premades there, but I have tweaked some of their children--not for "ugly", but for sheer implausibility. The Greenmans had some twins, one of which got no chin and some genuine "duck lips" while the other could fit another face between his eyes and and his nose.

Dora looks good, by the way! Still like herself, but more... yeah, I'll just stick with "plausible".

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I agree, and I will stand behind everyone's right to do what they want in their own game, even if that means changing all the premades to Face One and Two. That said, I know many fans of premade sims will check out of a story or image post pretty quickly if they see that a simmer has done that, so it's something to keep in mind.

Hal Capp is one of the sims that's based on a broken face template and changes once he ages up. It doesn't match his original face. That's one of the cases where I support correcting it to stay true to "canon" as his child face is the face he's presented to us with.

I wonder what's up with the Greenmans? I've similar results with their children. Maybe Rose has a longer face. Jason has (a modified?) Face One, which is short, so that could cause problems.

Thanks. I think she's still pretty Dora-ish, though I know it might not pass for someone who was really familiar with and/or fond of her face. I wonder how many people would have noticed if I hadn't said anything at all about it?

[docnerd.livejournal.com]

I have no particular attachment to the Ottomases, or really any of the premades, and I mostly have objections to making every single Sim look like Face 1 or Face 2 because they all have to be "pretty." But your Dora manages to look like herself without the tragic upward facial shift that will totally mess up any genetics, should you choose to marry her in.

And on that, I know wherefrom I speak, since I married an Ottomas into my Uglacy, which resulted in, as I'm sure you can guess, the eyes having migrated substantially northward and throwing off the balance of the face (if you want to see the damage of that firsthand, http://docnerd.livejournal.com/77166.html and http://docnerd.livejournal.com/67067.html).

Regarding the eye makeup, try fiddling with the cheekbones. If you move them up, you may be able to fix the makeup issue (which is something that, again, I have had to deal with doing an Uglacy). If this makes sense, I feel like the skin below the eyes is connected to the cheekbones, so when you move the eyes up and the cheekbones down, that area of skin gets all stretched out so it distorts any eyeliner or eyeshadow you try to put there.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Face One and Two everywhere is boring. It's boring enough that those faces turn up in a lot of premades in the game as it is. That said, it would be great if someone were to make a premade story where every premade had been made into Face One or Two and just post it without comment. I would laugh.

Wow. Those Ottomas genes served your uglacy very well. Their eyes are so strange.

Thank you for explaining that. That makes sense now, because the Ottomases have extremely low cheekbones. Mystery solved! I've pretty much resigned myself to not using any eye makeup on any of them, because I always end up with spiders under their eyes or worse.

[miss-amaretto.livejournal.com]

I see no real problem with the facial changes you have made. :) You kept Dora looking like... well... herself! Her eyes and nose are still the same. She still has her "classic" pointy cheekbones, so I can't imagine anybody could be very upset.

I've only played the Ottomas a bit, and I've never had Dora ever get into a relationship with anybody else, so I've never really noticed if her face doesn't line up. I'll trust you that it doesn't work. :)

My reasoning with minorly altering the Premade's faces is for genetics. I personally slightly edited the eyebrows of Chester Gieke because if not, he would make a very pointy faced little child.
But I can see how you wouldn't have the heart to change somebody you're more attached to. I've been thinking about editing Loki's face.... but I'm sort of reluctant since I'm more more attached to him than I am to Chester.
What you did wasn't wrong. :) So don't feel nervous or feel bad. In the end, it is your game, and you can choose to play it however it makes you feel. I know you're sharing these pictures in the form of a story, so your game is now public, but don't get too nervous. You did a great justice to Dora and her face. :) It looks almost exactly like her. It has her eyes and her "soul", if you will. :)

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I still think it resembles her, but depending on who's looking, I'm sure the changes would be noticeable. In the end, I've decided not to change her, but I wish the designer of those sims had realized the problems with shifting the face.

Have you ever played until the twins are born or Samantha and Peter have additional children? Some of those faces end up pretty broken.

Yeah, Chester and Loki both have very intense brows, but they line up fine with other features, so it doesn't bother me. I think Malcolm Landgraab also has the shortened face issue happening. His children often have odd bags under their eyes, most likely because his eyes are too high.

Thanks. :) That's reasuring, though I do like to consider these things, which is why I'm doing my thinking out loud here. But if I had to worry and second guess everything I do because someone might react badly to it (and someone invariably will), I'd never do anything.

[meetme2theriver.livejournal.com]

*resident Ottomas expert appears* Hi there!

I don't mind the changes you made to Dora, she still looks like herself, just yeah, more technically "correct". It's when people make sims completely unrecognizeable that I'll "object", in that I think it's stupid to even use pre-mades if you're going to make them all face 1, and then still tell people that "this is Wanda Tinker, who I made pretty, and blonde, and pale...".

And yeah, while the Ottomi ugly amuses me, they really are more "broken" than "ugly". I mean, Samantha and Peter both look fine. And Dora, too, on her own. Dora is actually a result of combining Peter and Sam, you know. One of the only possible "good" combinations you can get with the pair of them. EA only knows why they made Peter's mother his and his wife's genetic child.

So the shortened face all comes from Peter. People often blame Samantha for the wonky offspring, for some reason, but nope, it's all him. David, Sharla (except the hollow cheeks) and Tommy (except the nose, which looks oddly face 1) get more or less all their genetics from Sam, so they will breed fine, too.

Of course, your Dora looks even more like Samantha now... She really would make more sense as Sam's mother, heh.

Now I'm also very curious about what you're using Dora for!

[cindyanne1.livejournal.com]

Now I have an urge to fire up my game and play around with the Ottomas clan. :P

[peasant007.livejournal.com]

The only time I really object to Pre-Made facial surgery is when people make everyone Face 1 and then boast about how much prettier they are. I saw someone do that to Bella Goth (the Pleasantview version). I was like, "But...Pleasantview Bella is pretty much Face 2 anyway. Why?"

Another pet peeve is when anyone adjusts Alexander Goth's or Goopy's face and makes them Face 1. On one hand I can understand because Goopy's (and Alexander because he's the same template) mouth can be very unfortunate and awkward on some facial blends. But on the other hand, that's what makes Goopy Goopy. (Besides, I've grown to like it because my Gen 5 heiress is a Goopy child, and one of her kids also got his mouth.)

I've never adjusted any of the Pre-Mades though. In fact, I pretty much let the genetic cards lay where they fall with all of my Sims. The only time I adjusted a Sim's face (other than fixing the busted templates) is when I was rebuilding my neighborhood and I forgot to export and clone Alexander Goth and Lucy Burb's kid. He was an exact facial clone of Alexander and I wanted a kid with a better blend of his parents. So I rolled a 20 sided die and clicked the pacifier that many times in CAS.

TL;DR: Dora looks like Dora in your pictures. I personally would have used Face 1 as the template because her face IS smaller, but if you're using her for breeding purposes (in a non-Uglacy fashion) the way you went is the best route :)

[smjoshsims.livejournal.com]

Like others have said, I dislike when people mess with the premades drastically. I feel like there's no point playing them if you're going to edit them so much.

But I have edited a few of the premade children who don't make sense- Desdemona and Hal Capp were made to look like their parents since they were straight face templates, and I did create another Alex Goth using Bella and Mortimer's genes. He's so much more handsome.

[peasant007.livejournal.com]

...and I did create another Alex Goth using Bella and Mortimer's genes. He's so much more handsome.

LOL. In my story, I imply (and will pretty much outright say) that Alexander is Goopy's child and Mortimer didn't notice or care because, hey, finally a son! (The Goths are not good people in my story.)

[needlecream.livejournal.com]

I think adjustments like yours are fine. They are not for making the sim look different, they are for making the sim more functional.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

In this case, I think it's more to do with aesthetics than function, because I won't actually be breeding her. It's more about the principle of the thing and how those faces don't really make functional sense in the game.

I'm sort of torn about doing it, so maybe I won't, but I do wish the game designers had considered this when they designed those sims.

[shastakiss.livejournal.com]

I'm okay with sim surgery for the pre-mades but they have to earn the surgery reward in my game. Tommy had to go to college, get a degree in whatever is Show Business career-friendly, wait until a job in Show Business career became available while job-hunting, and get promoted enough to the career level where the surgery reward is available. After all that, he and his family were allowed to have a little work done. Basically no cheats, I was a pretty harsh task-master!

But I agree with what you and skellington say about just wonky structure, especially if you're a storyteller and future generations will be wonky because of it. If it's that broke, then you can fix it.

edit - sorry I kept saying Paranormal, ugh go to bed me

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

This is exactly why I'm not anti-plastic surgery for premade sims as a general rule. It's a feature of the game. The reward object exists, so why not have some sims use it? I think it makes perfect sense and can easily be part of a story. Or just because. It's there. It's not like you even have to use any mods to do it.

In my case, it's not really to fix future generations, because I won't be breeding Dora, so it's mostly just because this broken feature bothers me. And perhaps, for that reason, I'll choose not to make the change at all.

[madame-ugly.livejournal.com]

As a big ole Ottomas fan, I have to chime in.

First off, I have to preface with the old "it's your game, do what you want".

That said, I do see your point about them being "broken" looking. BUT, then you mentioned (in another comment here) that you'd never fiddle with the Goth kids because they are so iconic to sims and you would want to keep the look of your game as "maxis" as possible (to keep with how you write/play from the maxis backstories and all that).

So if it's not "ok" to surgerize the Goth kids (to more resemble their non-template parents) then it wouldn't be "ok" to surgerize the Ottomi. Shouldn't they be given the same respect of staying "pure maxis" (so to speak)?

But that's not really the debate here. It's more about "how much surgery is too much?" When it comes to your surgerized Dora she hasn't been surgerized beyond recognition (a la the "template 1 is the only pretty face, all sims must have it" folks) but she is definitely NOT Dora.

All that said, I have to ask one question. How big of a roll are the Ottomi going to play in your story? If I were in your place that's ultimately how I would decide about surgery. If they were going to take on a big role, where having their broken faced kids would just ruin the overall look of your story, then surgery would be justifiable. But if they're not going to be seen a lot (or their spawn seen a lot) then I'd just let them keep on being their fabulous broken faced selves. (it could become a fun game, showing the broken faced kids but never showing their FULL faces, like when an actor gets pregnant and they hide their belly behind furniture).

(and for the record I'm not just being the voice of dissent just to stir the pot--I love me some Ottomi and while they are jacked up design wise, that's pretty much their calling card, so fixing that is stripping them of a bit of their essence)

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

What I said about the Goths vs. what I've said about the Ottomases falls under the topic of changing features vs. moving features. People changing Alex's Goopy face to one that's a combo of Mortimer's Face Two and Bella's modified Face Two, and moving Dora's unchanged face down a few notches are not the same thing for me (but your mileage may vary).

This only really bothers me in Maxis sims where they've shortened the face. Due to the fact that neck length, ear location, head size, and sim height can't be adjusted, it just looks wrong. Not unique, not ugly, just... wrong.

[penigriffin.blogspot.nl (from livejournal.com)]

Like Mme. Ugly, I like the Ottomai as they are. I don't see Dora's brows "poking through her eyes," my twins are adorably homely (actually my female twin Theodora makes a convincing Romance lady who renders herself attractive with a little care and a lot of attitude), and I think their little sister in my game, Petra, is the belle of her age cohort.

I'm also constantly moving all the features in the vertical plane as it gives me many more options. Some people do have long necks and short faces; you can't do a properly beetling brow without vertical movement; and with a little care and patience you can even find eye makeup and glasses for every configuration. Nor does every woman need to wear eye makeup. I love breeding disparate faces and seeing what I get. Some of my favorite faces have been produced this way; and, surprisingly, some of the most successful non-white faces, as well.

But then I really, really, really prefer cartoony sims. And I have problems with facial recognition - in real life, too - so I want sims who can be identified from space. For the record, I would not recognize V. 2 as Dora.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I agree that some people do have long necks and short faces, or long necks and long faces, or short necks and short faces, but all sims have the same sized heads, the same length of neck, the same height, ears that are located in one fixed place, etc. So having a short face will always mean they have a long neck, and a sim with a short face will automatically have ears that are way down near their jawbone. So while I'm all for diversity, I still think too much movement of the features up and down makes for sims that don't really make anatomical sense in the game universe. And they breed weirdly, because the game isn't complex enough to take those things into consideration and combine them as they would in real life.

I ran into this problem with my simself when I first created her. The sim design in TS2 gives them all quite long and narrow faces, which I (and many people) do not have. I adjusted her face upward to make her face shorter, but ended up with the swan neck, which I also do not have. She also bred weirdly with other sim faces, in a broken way and not an interesting way. Because she's my simself, I've since changed her to give her the standard long face that all TS2 sims have (and need to have to interbreed in a way that makes sense).

I can understand how you and many others would consider her "not Dora" after the changes, and ultimately that may be why I choose not to change her at all, but I will always think that the sims with this sort of adjustment in their faces look somewhat out of place in the game.

[sunbee19.livejournal.com]

To me, the surgery Dora doesn't look like Dora, and it's precisely because her face is longer. Note, I cannot recognize real faces of real people-prosopagnosia-so I really, really can't recognize most sim faces. So that's probably not all that relevant--I tell my sims by clothes/hair. Would she work for your purposes with a click or two shorter face?
My thoughts on sim plastic surgery are generally about why that character would have it. Dora wouldn't--at least not my Dora, who knows who she is and what she wants and has more confidence than everyone else combined. Gunnar Roque wouldn't have it. He doesn't care that he's 'ugly' as long as he gets lucky. Goneril Capp would--she's pretty insecure, especially when she's in a room with her sister, nieces and daughters, and she cares a great deal about being attractive and photogenic. Romeo Monty is another insecure sim who would, in spite of others finding him attractive, he doesn't find himself to be so.

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I like your thoughts on why some sims would get plastic surgery. I always thought one or both of the Pleasant twins might get a nose job, since they have very prominent noses and are TV stars in my story universe. I could also see one wanting to look less like the other. I've even considered making a short story about it, but haven't ever gotten around to it.

Thanks for your feedback on this.

[pixelcurious.livejournal.com]

Just curious, did you check to see how your adjusted Dora looks as a senior?

[strange-tomato.livejournal.com]

I haven't, but it didn't seem like she changed a great deal going back from elder to adult, though I could be wrong. I'll check it out later when I'm in Bodyshop again.

I've decided to go with the unaltered sims anyway, so it's doesn't matter that much anymore. I still think it's an improvement, but in the end I think I'd rather show them as they are in the game. If I was a big fan of those sims and they showed up in a story I was reading, I know I'd be disappointed if they were altered, so I'm going to go with that.

[sophie10.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with sim surgery when it's correcting broken face templates and possibly when it comes to fixing premade children who are straight face templates. I'm undecided on the 2nd because whilst I like my sim kids to look like their parents there is a reason I play with the premades and changing them feels weird. However I hate it when people show off pictures of the premades and they've been massively altered or even worse been made into face 1 or 2. Everyone's free to do what they want in their own game but in those circumstances I don't think they should show them off in Maxis match communities/threads because they aren't the premades anymore.

Personally I thought your altered Dora was great, she still looked like herself but was less broken looking. However I am not an Ottomas fan, I always turn them into townies and Tommy goes in the adoption pool. I am curious to see what you will be doing with them because you always write really interesting characters.

[nepheris.livejournal.com]

I have no qualms about using simsurgery on premades for breeding purposes. It's quite difficult though to keep their unique look while still modifying the facial structure enough that it's compatible with other sims'. Oftentimes the endresult looks more generic, but I think you managed to avoid that pretty well here.

With regards to your Dora - try moving up her cheekbones so they're closer to her eyes, I think it would help with making her look more like her old self.

[so-goshable.livejournal.com]

Some of my favorite sims have been townies that I've put under the knife. Usually I just do minor asjustments, but if the change is extensive and I plan to use them ongoingly, I rename them.