Again with the gender thing...

[strangetomato]

Gender is weird, huh?

I've noticed that people on lj (and other places online, I assume) tend to make something of an issue out of people getting their gender wrong. Someone made a secret about me at one point, saying that they always thought I was a guy, and I wonder how they thought I was going to react to that. I don't really care. If anything, I think it's nice to be anonymously without gender on the internet, and I usually don't select a gender when given the option in profiles and such. If people don't know, then you don't have any of the baggage that comes with it. It's the same reason I use SO instead of husband. Husband feels like such a loaded term to me.

I see people rushing to correct people when they get the gender of a simmer wrong, whether it's themselves or someone else. I notice, too, that it's always males. That's not surprising. It makes sense, given the predominantly female nature of the sims fandom (and fandom in general). We're going to assume y'all have ovaries unless we're told the difference. But why is it so important to correct people?

I was curious about it, so I thought I'd ask (rather than make a simsecret or some such nonsense). For those of you that have done it (and I know a number of people on my flist that have), why do you feel the need to inform people that you or someone else is a male? Note that I'm not here to pick a fight or anything of the sort. I'd just like to hear your side of it.

(Oh, and... for the record, fanseelamb is a female. :P This one seems to come up over and over again.)

And another thing...

I've always been one of those people that tries to be conscious of the gendered messages I give to children in the way I talk to them, like not telling girl's they're "pretty" while telling boys they're "smart" and crap like that (which people do ALL of the time, if you listen to them), but then I noticed I was treating Petey (my first male cat) in a distinctly different way than his big "sister," Suki. How much of that is personality, and how much of that is me projecting? (He's a total Momma's boy, by the way. :P) It's crazy how we slip into these things. The cats are both spayed/neutered, so it's not like they even have any sex-based behaviours to speak of. And they're cats! Do they even have gender?

What do you think? Have any thoughts or interesting stories to share?

Comments

[ejiamet.livejournal.com]

ALSO! As a horde player I've noticed that more with blood elf chicks than with any other race! Not only when I play my blood elf girl but when I see other people playing them. Ugh men lol :P

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

No, it's not that bad. I don't know many people with such severe issues as that, so compared to the "normal" people around me, with no problems that I can see, I thought I had it hard.
But one thing I have experience with is parents who haven't done the research on what they and I think I have, so they don't always realize that my anxiety in public and temporary loss of temper control aren't intentional, and they treat me like a little kid for my "little kid actions" and expect me to behave like someone not afflicted with anything so bad.
(Which really puts things into perspective. If you're telling me there are people worse than I am ... wow.)

Since I've never had it pointed out that I've got such a big privilege, I haven't had the chance to recognize it, really.

Once again, I do appreciate the value of new points of view. Even if I do still disagree when I'm done discussing this, the chance to work myself into a better mindset is something I value.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Like you say, since I hadn't thought of it before as that big a privilege, I never really thought to acknowledge it.

I guess if you're saying that there are people worse off than I am, that's pretty bad. I do go through difficult periods, but for the most part, I'm better off now. I think having been told "hey, you might have a problem" has helped me to teach myself not to do some of the same things I did before, but I still get a lot of recognizing that I could have handled something better, two seconds after my reaction. That's probably why I'm getting so wound up by the pressure of this discussion.

[simsinthecity.livejournal.com]

Most of the people around me seem to conform to gender "standards" as far as I can tell. I do make assumptions in my head but I less often talk using those assumptions until there's some kind of an apparent indication that I'm right, or if I'm wrong, that there's an indication of that.

I wouldn't say I'm a "manly man" but personally I'm not so offended if someone addresses me with an incorrect assumption they've made about me. Since I make some assumptions, I expect assumptions to be made about me as well. If the other person can't handle that I don't conform to their expectations, I don't see any need to keep talking with them.

[(Anonymous)]

You do have it hard, compared to what's considered "normal", and I'm very sorry about what you've gone through.

Yes, there are people who are worse off, though it's difficult to compare. My problems aren't like yours, but they make it difficult to live the way most people do. Some days I don't want to wake up (and not because I'm lazy - just depressed), some days the thought of even going out to do the grocery shopping makes me feel physically ill, human interaction is often very difficult for me. I suffer from a range of anxiety and emotional disorders. As I said, it's hard to compare, though, since we are going through such different things. And I don't mean to make this a contest either. :-) It's not about who has it worse; I'm just hoping that sharing a bit about myself will open your eyes to some things you may not otherwise have been aware of.

I don't think we are particularly disagreeing at this point as much as discussing. I can see that you were ignorant to some things (which is understandable, we're all ignorant to some things!), and I just hope I've opened your eyes a bit. We tend to have a very narrow view of the world, so it's nice to have someone else's perspective sometimes. Thank you for considering what I say and not turning this into a flame war.

[sadieg79.livejournal.com]

No no, I got what you meant - I'm just trying to dispell what seems to be a very common myth. It's hard enough trying to explain my position to people without then being asked "So.. do you fancy girls now or what?" >_< Tis frustrating - but never mind, that's another rant for another day.

But yes - it's a good example of what you were saying; how it's more what people expect that how it really is.

[sadieg79.livejournal.com]

There's an excellent resource here: http://www.gires.org.uk/index.php - it's designed specifically to educate others, so it's a great starting point. It's UK based though, so I don't know how legal etc. matters apply where any of you guys are, but the whole "what is this all about, anyway?" should be answered there, at least.

Having said that, another good place is here: http://www.susans.org/ - this *is* American-based, and the forums contain a wealth of real-life stories that may interest you.

Anyway - it's impossible to give a general answer re. things like behaviours and attraction. I've recently been on a retreat for trans guys, and there were all sorts there - from butch, to middling, to camp as anything! Some like guys, some like girls, some like both - apparently sexuality is subject to change once hormones start, but it's more to do with becoming more comfortable in your own skin and therefore more confident in what you want. But this is how gender and sexuality are completely separate; you get gay/straight/bi trans-folks just as you do with cisgendered (non-trans) folk.

In the same way, gender and sex are separate - the problem most folks have with this (I think) is just down to the fact that for most people, the two are in harmony with each other, therefore they must be linked. People like me are proof that it doesn't always work that way; the brain gets wired in one way (male, female, both/neither), but the body goes the other way. Social conditioning means that people only see the shell and that's how they treat people, according to assigned gender roles, which sadly are based on stereotypes. What with that and the pressure to conform, what should be a simple case of "okay, I'm not a woman after all, just a guy with the wrong bits" becomes anything from hard to extremely traumatic - all too often leading to self-harm or even suicide. I've been very lucky so far, in that people I know have been supportive and even encouraging, but in most cases it doesn't happen.

Something else I need to point out - intersex and transgender are very different things. Intersex refers to having a combination of male and female organs/genitalia, while transgender is a broad term encompassing people who are confused over their gender identity.

Anyway - glad to oblige ^_^ I love to share what I can with people who are willing to learn :)

Part 1/2

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

This conversation is a few days past its expiration date, but I wanted to give a proper response.

re: privilege. Strange and Anon. have already covered this a bit, but I want to reinforce it. You have privilege, a lot of privilege, because you are a straight White cis man who does not have, as far as you have said, any truly disabling physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. You're from the U.S., and if you're part of the middle/upper-middle class, you have even more privilege. Simply because of who you are and where you were born, you have access to certain advantages, rights, and freedoms that other people do not have, simply because of who they are and where they were born. You have privilege whether you want it or not; there is nothing you can do to not have the privilege you do, though you can try and counteract the benefits you receive because of it. It's more complicated than that, of course, but privilege is a core concept in discussions about oppression and social justice; you are going to need a decent understanding and acceptance of it if you want to engage in these conversations, or you are almost definitely going to find a lot of people getting very angry at you, and understandably so.

You should read this. It's a good place to start, I think. Follow the links, do some research. You accuse me of expecting you to know things you've never been exposed to, but that's not the point. Another thing you should keep in mind: these conversations are not about you. The point is, you hurt someone out of ignorance (myself, for one), and people are trying to help you correct that. Yes, it sucks to be caught with egg on your face - most people don't want to hurt others. I've been there, I've stupid shit out of my own biases and privilege, and here's what I can tell you about being called out: You are not being attacked, or condemned; nobody is accusing you of being a bad person, or of being stupid.

It's not about you.

Yes, because you have the privilege to ignore a lot of these issues, you've never given much thought to them; you didn't know. But you know now, and it's on you to do some of the leg work; don't expect me, or anyone, to hold your hand through things like this. Don't expect me, or anyone, to be patient and "nice" with you about this; you're not entitled.

Part 2/2 (lol character limits)

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

re: choice, I asked because there are Unfortunate Implications in your claim that you "only" make fun of people who "choose" to be that way; you are essentially claiming that you have the authority to determine whether something is a choice, and whether or not that choice is significant. You are essentially claiming that unless someone "can't help it," this or that aspect of who they are deserves to be mocked.

There are a lot of serious problems with that line of thought. For example, in many ways social class is considered a choice. By your logic, it's acceptable to crack jokes about the poor and homeless, because they could choose to change their situation. They could jobs! There are programs they could choose to take advantage of! And yet, that ignores ignores the reality of how incredibly difficult it can be, and is, to pull oneself out of poverty.

Or, to use your own bootstrap argument, disability and mental illness. You yourself made the incredibly ablist claim that people "choose" whether they let their illness control their lives. I do not think you understand how harmful - as in actual and legitimate damage - that sort of thinking causes. I do not believe you get how incredibly angry and hurt I feel, being someone who has lived her whole life with mental illness and learning disabilities, hearing people say that. The entire belief that illness, mental or otherwise, is a "choice" is steeped in ignorance of how difficult it can be to get treatment, how difficult it is to manage an illness even with treatment; it ignores the chronicity of such illnesses and disabilities, and furthermore suggests that there is something wrong with people who live with them, that there is something they need to change. And you imply you have some right to pass judgment on these issues. You do not. No one does, except the person living with them.

It's not that you claimed it's okay to make fun of people with disabilities - I assume you'd say such a bullshit thing as that - but that is what your logic implies, and your thoughts about this are hurtful and problematic besides. You may not have intended them to be so, but intent is not magical.

So, I asked what you consider a choice because I wanted you to think about how problematic and asinine your claim was. I am not trying to "trick" you, or "trap" you, or anything ridiculous like that.

One last thing, with regards to one of your comments down thread, that knowing someone's gender narrows down topics of conversation. It doesn't narrow things down as much as you might think. Menstruation, for example. Not all women menstruate, or even have ovaries. Not all people who menstruate are women. Not all women are comfortable talking about menstruation, and not all men are uncomfortable with it. That's just one example, but basically, the idea that knowing someone's gender will significantly influence what you can and can't talk about is wrong. Honestly, it's Othering to me; you're implying that there is still something fundamentally different about men and women, that women have anything in common beyond self-identifying as women. You're also reinforcing a gender binary, that there are Men and Women, and no one can ever be both or neither or anywhere in between. I don't like it.

I appreciate that it's difficult and uncomfortable when you start entering anti-oppression conversations; it was hard for me, and still is. These aren't easy or simple conversation. However, you do have a lot of shit you need to work through and unpack; it's hard to reply to your comments because there is just so much to cover, and it's exhausting. I know your young, but seriously.

So I'm not the least bit sorry for being angry, or for making you uncomfortable, but I do hope you keep having these discussions, and that you do the research and keep learning. It's hard, and it never really ends, but it's always worth it.

Re: Part 2/2 (lol character limits)

[will-o-whisper.livejournal.com]

*you'd never say.

My soul for a paid account and edit function :(

[silentsteel.livejournal.com]

Online, I've been mistaken for male, and it's only bugged me when I was on the rag - usually because I had already explained I was in a bad mood and just wanted some quiet play time, when it came to MMORPGs.

I'm trying my damndest to not do 'stereotypical' gender behavior with my nephew, but I have no troubles with complimenting the neighborhood kids when they're being smart little bastards. Or darling morons - I've called them that too.