strangetomato | Again with the gender thing...

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Again with the gender thing...

Gender is weird, huh?

I've noticed that people on lj (and other places online, I assume) tend to make something of an issue out of people getting their gender wrong. Someone made a secret about me at one point, saying that they always thought I was a guy, and I wonder how they thought I was going to react to that. I don't really care. If anything, I think it's nice to be anonymously without gender on the internet, and I usually don't select a gender when given the option in profiles and such. If people don't know, then you don't have any of the baggage that comes with it. It's the same reason I use SO instead of husband. Husband feels like such a loaded term to me.

I see people rushing to correct people when they get the gender of a simmer wrong, whether it's themselves or someone else. I notice, too, that it's always males. That's not surprising. It makes sense, given the predominantly female nature of the sims fandom (and fandom in general). We're going to assume y'all have ovaries unless we're told the difference. But why is it so important to correct people?

I was curious about it, so I thought I'd ask (rather than make a simsecret or some such nonsense). For those of you that have done it (and I know a number of people on my flist that have), why do you feel the need to inform people that you or someone else is a male? Note that I'm not here to pick a fight or anything of the sort. I'd just like to hear your side of it.

(Oh, and... for the record, fanseelamb is a female. :P This one seems to come up over and over again.)

And another thing...

I've always been one of those people that tries to be conscious of the gendered messages I give to children in the way I talk to them, like not telling girl's they're "pretty" while telling boys they're "smart" and crap like that (which people do ALL of the time, if you listen to them), but then I noticed I was treating Petey (my first male cat) in a distinctly different way than his big "sister," Suki. How much of that is personality, and how much of that is me projecting? (He's a total Momma's boy, by the way. :P) It's crazy how we slip into these things. The cats are both spayed/neutered, so it's not like they even have any sex-based behaviours to speak of. And they're cats! Do they even have gender?

What do you think? Have any thoughts or interesting stories to share?

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She'd also been asking me a lot of other questions that I didn't want to answer. My age, what Insim does (and I don't use Insim!), what's all in OFB, what's a plumbbob ... my frustration built up and then exploded all at once.

Holy shit. what's a plumbbob?? lol

I might have referred to plumbbobs in an early response, so it wasn't completely random. She also refused to go to a comm and ask these questions because she claimed she didn't speak English well. Even though I understood her just fine >.>

That's just so bizarre.

I love talking about gender on the internets!

Although with the correcting thing, in my case, if I correct someone about gender it's for the same reason I'd correct them about anything else: What the person corrected said was factually incorrect, and if said person continues with this assumption, it might get embarrassing. XD I know if I had somebody's gender wrong, I'd feel very sheepish, even though there's no way of knowing. (This goes double if I'm talking directly to them.) I don't mind not knowing, if someone is deliberately obscure about it, but...well, my next point.

Contrary to the common internet meme that "There are no girls on the internet," I usually assume anyone I encounter online is a woman. (This is probably because my online experience is dominated by fandom and the feminist blogosphere.) If someone online isn't forthcoming about their gender identity, my mental picture of them is usually an androgyne leaning toward feminine. (Although I went back and forth on fanseelamb, because I thought she might have been a gay man and I'm not sure why?) I almost never take usernames into account unless they specifically denote gender somehow, and even then sometimes it's a curveball: I thought AlfredAskew was a guy, for about ten seconds before I read her MTS profile.

Also, I'm not following you officially, I just realized. Mind if I friend you?

Awkwardly. His parents are crazy fundamentalist Born-Again Christians - like, homeschooling their kids because the schools are Christian enough crazy - and his mom was in the room. I ended up telling him that I thought that wasn't a very nice thing to say, because lots of girls knew things about computers, and did he know I couldn't dance and didn't know anything at all about hair. I don't know that he bought it, and I doubt his mom liked but...I couldn't just ignore that. I mean, what. The. Fuck. Him and his sister, I worry about. They are the cutest, sweetest, kids, but they are going to be so messed up as they get older.

I'm doing alright. The funeral proper is ~~tomorrow~~ today, and that will be rough, but at least I got to be here.

The curious thing with my mother is that I really believe her biggest upset about my clothes was that I looked too gay (and my dressier outfits are fairly butch, I won't lie), and that would cause problems. When I tried to call her on this, she got very defensive; it was strange and pretty upsetting. Yet nobody cared, not even my crazy religious aunt and uncle; they thought I looked snappy, cute, what have you. They also kept teasing about how all the guys were going to come after me, and how I keep talking about never getting pregnant but I'll totally change my mind when I get married and settle down with a nice guy. I expected things to be a lot more uncomfortable on that front, and yet it hasn't occurred to any of them that I might be anything but straight and, ultimately, heteronormative. Now, there a few butch women who are married to men in my family, which is why it's "acceptable" for me to wear what I do; to a degree, "masculinity" in women is associated more with being a good country farm girl than anything. And we do love our farmers. With others, including my mother I would bet, female masculinity is associated with homosexuality - something absolutely taboo to this side of the family. So there's this interplay, and lack of interplay, between gender, gender presentation, and sexuality going on, and its curious to see how people react to it, at least in my family.

This is all tangentially related, at best, to your original post, but you mentioned the relationship between gender and sexuality down-thread and it made me think. And I might be navel gazing because this whole experience has been upsetting in more ways than one, and I'm taking frustration out on everyone's LJ. >.>;

Respecting individual wishes is probably the best way to go with things like this, in my opinion. Personally, I always check peoples' profiles and the first page of their journals to see how they refer to themselves; if I can't find anything, I assume female until told otherwise. Myself, I mostly don't care, and even enjoy confusing people and being Sir'd. In male dominated spaces, like World of Warcraft since it's coming up so much, however, it's much more important to me to be properly identified as a woman. With WoW, while I won't usually say anything when it happens, I really do not like being defaulted to male, despite my female toons with female sounding names. A large part of that, for me, and a lot of women, I think, is that geek culture is so horrifyingly sexist and misogynistic, that it's all the more important for some that our voices and existence be acknowledged, and being called, and treated like, a man plays a part in erasing that.

Something like all that. I have no idea why LJ (especially fandom circles) is so female dominated, though. It's something that gets discussed a lot, it feels, but damned if I have any links.

B-but what if someone called your male sim a female sim? WHAT THEN?

They're only dangly if you can make them, well, dangle :D
I think far more men play sims than there are active ones in the community, which skews people's view on it a bit.

I'm still very used to using him/her or he/she (or if the person is annoying, he/she/it :p). Strangely enough people don't tend to correct me, maybe they just mentally pick what fits and are content with that.

I find it hilarious that some guys actually fall for that. You don't know who's sitting behind that screen steering Astralia the Hot Elf Chick around, is it really that important to look at her pixel boobs that you give him/her money? I just don't get it.

Even when playing female characters in WoW, people assumed I was male anyway. Maybe it's got to do with my attitude or the way I talk online. Never had people shower me with gifts, either :( (then again I didn't go fishing for it)

I'm not going to have time for a few days to give you a proper answer, but I do want you to know that I have a lot of problems with what you've said here. A few things, though.

First, "make fun of" and "mock" are not all that different; either way, you are taking some aspect of another person and raising it up to be laughed at. What seems light-hearted to you may not seem that way to them. What seems insignificant to you, may be very significant to them. It's ironic you chose a preference for pink as an insignificant thing, considering how tied up that color is in gender. Pink is very significant to a lot of people.

-"what you consider a 'choice'"

I'll try and break down my issues with all this later, but seriously? There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to start. You have a lot of privilege you need to start unpacking, and it shows here, and in most of your comments. The short answer, though, is: You do not get to determine what is or is not a "choice" for other, you have no authority to make that decision and no right to pass judgment (which is what you are doing), especially in relation to illness, mental or otherwise, and disability. Just, no. Stop that line of thought right there.

This whole discussion of whether a simmer is male or female doesn't even consider for a moment that they might be both, neither, or somewhere in between. It's another good reason to be wary of the whole thing.

Absolutely. I've actually spoken with a few people who identify as genderless. One said that if given the choice, they'd rather go without sex hormones altogether. I do remember what it's like to feel stuck in the middle - I thought I might be bigendered, until I noticed an ever-increasing desire to just be male. Very long story, but anyway...

In answer to your question; it's definitely opened my eyes on the whole thing. I'm more aware of the differences in gender roles, and how I'm left feeling while still looking (and sounding) female. Even before, there were things like men watching me work inside a computer and saying "mind you don't break a nail." And yes - sexuality does get brought into the whole sex/gender discussion too, although it shouldn't be. One has nothing to do with another - and sexuality's on a spectrum of its own.

The problem is, society likes to keep things simple. It thinks in black and white, and has the annoying habit of categorising everything. People can't be put into neat little boxes, we're far too complex for that.

This whole discussion of whether a simmer is male or female doesn't even consider for a moment that they might be both, neither, or somewhere in between. It's another good reason to be wary of the whole thing.

That's just it - there *is* no relationship between gender and sexuality. I can only guess that people think that way through stereotyping, and lots of it - as you've mentioned, in fact. Butch woman = lesbian, camp guy = gay, etc. I've met enough butch women and camp guys who are straight :P But you've made a lot of interesting points about the whole thing.

Alright, so I don't have anything to tell you, but this: thank you so much for making this post! Gender is just one more feature, peoples' whole personalities can't be categorized into two categories like that, and the over-obsessing over gender is crazy in my view. But that's just me. :)

To be honest, this isn't an easy conversation for me to have. Arguing about this and being put on the spot is making me uncomfortable, and I'm sure it's showing. I'm nervous and my answers are shaky, and not all that well put-together. But I suppose I should thank you, at least, for presenting the opportunity to address these topics. I come from an environment that doesn't give them much thought, but you're welcome to help me think of different things, and you're showing me how to reconsider my thoughts.

Like, I never thought that anyone would be deeply offended when being made fun of for liking pink. As a child, I'd admitted to liking pink, and it embarrassed me (because of gender and environment) but I never projected that onto other people. It was largely my choice, not theirs, so I didn't feel the need to be angry or offended. I would have been more angry at myself for giving them the information necessary to mock me. I enabled them.

For my "choice" definition, it goes back to my experience. It sounds like you're expecting I should have considered things I've never been asked to consider. I haven't been put into a lot of decisions about diseases and the like — which is probably the only way I'd consider myself "privileged."
(I hope you don't think I said it's okay to make fun of anyone with a disability. I never meant to say that, and if it looks like that, I would have clarified if I weren't as nervous about answering you.)

Can you clarify something? To me, it looks like you gave me a trick question. You asked me to define "choice" and then you said I can't determine what a choice is. I'm willing to assume you didn't mean anything like that, but I would like to hear what you have to say if you can put in other words.

About the cat thing...I don't think that cats have genders because cats don't really have a social stigma (if that's even the right word) about genders, like what you were saying about girls being "pretty" and boys being "smart." People, how ever can treat cats differently, but that's really because people are people and see cats as a "boy" or "girl."

You're right. I'm conflating gender and sexuality, and I shouldn't be.

Somewhere in that jumble, more what I was trying to say was that social constructions and assumptions about gender, and its presentation, often overlap with social constructions and assumptions about sexuality, and its presentation. It's not how things are, but how people (to use a vague and useless term) tend to expect things to be, and how those expectations shape their thoughts and actions - and in the case of my anecdata, how those expectations change across groups.

I don't know if that's any better. I messed up, though, and I'm sorry.

I would have been more angry at myself for giving them the information necessary to mock me. I enabled them.

That's ridiculous. By that line of thought, people in the LGBTQ community shouldn't come out because that's enabling people to mock them. I realise you don't think that, but what you're saying logically implies something more serious.

What you said about choice was offensive to me, as someone struggling with mental illness. I go to therapy, which is a "choice", but things are still tough and, yeah, sometimes it's hard not to let my mind rule me.

The fact that you think I shouldn't let my mental illness "control my actions" shows that you are privileged. Honestly, I don't know that much about you, but I still think it's fucking ridiculous if you don't consider yourself privileged. You are a white American male, I'm assuming without any crippling illness, mental or otherwise. That is so much better than most people have it. It's the definition of privileged. The fact that you don't think you are is just even more annoying.

You're young, you have a lot to learn. Just try not to be so closed-minded.

What you said about choice was offensive to me, as someone struggling with mental illness. I go to therapy, which is a "choice", but things are still tough and, yeah, sometimes it's hard not to let my mind rule me.

I know it's hard because I've got mental problems myself. To be honest, for me specifically, not knowing that I had any problems (I thought I was different but not for any medical reason; and I've never been formally diagnosed, but I do read up on these things and I'm fairly sure of some of these things.) and being treated like any other person, helped me to overcome it, a little bit. I don't know how I would be if I had been diagnosed and received therapy, so I can't speak about that, but if it works for you, that's good. I don't like to hear that anyone has those sorts of problems, so any way a person can find to overcome their struggles, I support.

The fact that you think I shouldn't let my mental illness "control my actions" shows that you are privileged. Honestly, I don't know that much about you, but I still think it's fucking ridiculous if you don't consider yourself privileged. You are a white American male, I'm assuming without any crippling illness, mental or otherwise. That is so much better than most people have it. It's the definition of privileged. The fact that you don't think you are is just even more annoying.

I've never thought of that as a really big privilege because I don't live in an environment where I see that as being made to be a big issue. Where I am, I don't see people being discriminated against based on those things. Maybe if you knew that, you wouldn't be making assumptions on my situation and reprimanding me for it.

You're young, you have a lot to learn. Just try not to be so closed-minded.

I know that.

I'm active-minded. I do receive new ideas and consider them. I don't think I've ever said to anyone that I would reject their idea without studying it carefully. I am willing to accept new things, but I do hold firm convictions about right and wrong and I do like to think out new ideas thoroughly before I throw out my old ones.

I'd just like to jump in here to say that recognizing that you have a position of privilege in the world at large is not necessarily accepting blame or being reprimanded for that (we're all born into our situations without much choice in the matter), but it's acknowledging that we do have things easier than others.

We're not always aware of our own privilege, but I think it's fair to say that (nearly) everyone in this thread is privileged in one way or another. I know I am. I think it's important to be aware of that so we can be grateful for the things we could easily take for granted, and to remind ourselves to consider the struggles of those who do not have it as easy as we do.

As for the mental illness, we don't have to get into any details, but if you weren't formally diagnosed, it's probably safe to say that you weren't as seriously affected by it as someone who was. That's not to say that you didn't go through a difficult time, but you can't really compare it to the experience of someone who required medical attention. It's just not the same.

And self-help does work for some people. I've been successful with it, to varying degrees, at different points in my life. But it's not enough for a lot of people.

Anyway, I appreciate your last statement. It's always smart to question your beliefs and evolve them over time. Bringing a new idea into your life doesn't always mean throwing out the old one completely. Often you can adapt your old worldview to the new information, making the whole picture a little clearer and less rigid.

You've been getting into this discussion pretty deeply, which I appreciate, but try not to worry about coming to a definite conclusion at the end. It's not a debate in the sense that someone is going to win the argument. This is complicated stuff, and we're far from having hard and fast answers. Our knowledge is always shifting and expanding. It's one of the reasons I find discussions like this so fascinating.

So you don't want me to ask you if you have PMS? Okay. Dick jokes it is, then! I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I ask guys if they have PMS, too. :P Nobody is spared.

(Yeah, I needed to lighten the mood around here. Deep discussion is good, but let's not all get buried alive in the heaviness of it.)

You've been engaged in a lot of (pretty heated) discussions about this, so I'm not looking to start up another one, but I'm more of the school of thought that there isn't any "appropriate" way we should be treating anyone based on their gender. Just as often as someone might appreciate it, they're likely to feel put off by it.

For example, my SO is a male but doesn't relate to a lot of the culture around the male gender (in the sense of beer-drinking, sports-watching, "good ol' boy" stuff, to name just a few), so he only feels alienated when people try to relate to him in this manner. And to many guys, this is the approriate manner to engage another male in. He's had more than one awkward moment where he's turned down an offered beer, when the guy seemed truly baffled and even offended by it. (I prefer to think of these moments as funny, though. "What's the matter? You don't like BEER?! *cue ominous music* XD)

But I understand (what I assume to be) your basic point. Being male is part of your identity. As several other's have said, we need to respect a person's own gender identity. If they feel it is relevant to provide this information, then we should respect that. This was initially brought up in relation to transgendered people, but I see no reason to apply it to all people.

I guess the key is not to make any assumptions about behaviour based on that piece of infomation, but I think we all do that, conciously or not.

And perhaps it's best to leave the discussion of other simmer's gender to their own discretion, too, though I tend to agree with the other's who have said that people tend to do it more as a way of showing they know something (having "insider information," if you will), or that it's a novelty.

I think I (like many?) complicate or misunderstand intersex people, by equating gender and sex. Just because someone transitions from male to female, or female to male, doesn't mean they change their behaviour in relation to gender norms, does it? They might take on some of the accepted notions of the other gender or they might stay as they've always been, which is somewhere in the middle (or anywhere else along the road).

Or am I totally off base in saying that? It's hard for me to tell. I really appreciate you sharing your firsthand experience with this, since it's something I've had minimal exposure to.

I've come across that idea before, that sexuality and gender have nothing to do with each other, but I still struggle with that one. I know they're different, distinct things, but I can't help but feel that they are related in some, undefined way. I, for example, have always been attracted to men who are not strongly masculine. Not feminine, but somewhere in a more neutral place on the scale. For me, it feels like my sexual attraction to males is as related to their expression of gender as their physical sex.

But, as I said, I'll be the first to admit it's a topic I haven't explored at great length, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass. I should do some reading up on it. Do you have anything you could recommend to me?

I couldn't agree more with your last statement. People are very complex, fascinating creatures. ^_^

Honestly, if you were able to overcome your mental issues in any way without therapy, they're probably not that bad. I'm not saying you're lying, and certainly any sort of mental or emotional instability is difficult to deal with. But, trust me, as someone who goes to therapy and is on medication, life is still difficult. It's not a "choice" whether I function in society or not. Our culture is built so that a very narrow group of people succeed, and people like me aren't in that range. Like it or not, that's how it is, and I don't appreciate the inference that it's my choice whether or not I go about life like "normal" people do.

As strange_tomato said, I don't mean to imply that it's bad for you to be privileged, nor am I reprimanding you. I do think that you should recognise that you are. You're right, I don't know much about you, but what you have is better than many, many people. It's great that people aren't discriminated against for those things where you live, but that just means that your community in general is pretty privileged. Look at the world around you: there is poverty all over the place, broken families, and a staggering number of people suffer from mental disorders. Of course there are people better off, and maybe you're average relative to your community, but relative to the world at large you're very lucky. I just think you should appreciate what you have. :-)

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you or trying to be mean. I'm not. As someone suffering from diagnosed mental disorders, and as someone whose sexuality doesn't fit on the usual spectrum, this post (and especially your comments) struck a chord with me. I appreciate that this is new territory for you and not necessarily something you're completely comfortable with discussing - this is all just another perspective from someone in a different situation, something to think about.

Thank you very much, as always you articulate what I'm thinking so well.

This is a great discussion, thanks for posting this entry.

Hi! Just poppin in on this conversation :P I'm a lurker, but as I am a female WoW player I couldn't resist.

For one - this video is funny and relates to that topic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQkE7QwzNz4

Heheh :) Also as a female WoW player I've definitely noticed a distinct difference in the way males treat me in-game. Probably has something to do with the fact that I'm open (especially with my guildies) about the fact that I am female, met my SO (their guild master) through WoW and currently pregnant with his child. So they're afraid of my hormones XD but it is more than that as well. In some cases I don't really understand why I get treated much differently just based on my gender (which is sometimes assumed solely because I play female characters). Sometimes their behavior toward me will be very flirtatious but not always.

I've never used my gender as a way to get anything though LOL and my SO plays his main toon as a chick and I've known him to... I think actual males do that more than females do! LOL

I find it even more hilarious when men do that because you don't know, if it IS a girl she could be completely hideous. Sure she could be drop dead gorgeous but you don't know one way or another.
Like, when guys hit on me it's like lol, I could be an ugly old troll for all you know.
They could go either way, just thinking GIRL GIRL GIRL, and get excited in the pants just thinking about it, (when listening in vent if someone in a raid finds out I'm a girl, sometimes they'll LITERALLY freak out and be like OMG WE HAVE A GIRL AMONG US) or assume that because I'm a girl who plays WoW I MUST be ugly and/or fat...
On another note I used to get a LOT of private messages asking me if I was a girl. I learned not to answer them and/or lie to them because they always asked me if I wanted to cyber for 30g after I told them. Upon telling some male friends they said they'd totally lie and just do it. LOL!

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Again with the gender thing...

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