strangetomato | Simsecret Discussion

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Simsecret Discussion

Man, it's been a while since I've been so involved in a discussion in simsecret (about warnings for gay content, and how this contributes to homophobia vs. it being a legitimate warning for the "genre" of slash). I don't always jump into the fray of these debates, but gender and sexuality are the topics where I can't help but suit up and yell, "Okay, let's play ball!" :P Yes, you could say they are my pet isms, in the sense that they are the ones I am mostly tuned in to.

If anyone wants to toss out their two cents (or more) here, we can continue the chat. Feel free to discuss and debate among yourselves. Just keep it clean, folks.

ETA: After using the sports metaphor above, I ended up with Centerfield by John Fogerty in my head. Argh! It's like I'm stuck at a family wedding back home in The Cove (name of home~~town~~village has been changed to protect the guilty). :P

And I've added a music suggestion to hopefully lighten the mood (and because my SO has amassed something of a Big Fat Gay Music Collection).

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*emerges from the shadowy corner of lurkers*

Okay, potentially incoherent comment coming right up (errr... I just woke up, okay? Sorry):

I have to agree with everyone else. With a heterosexual couple, there probably won't be a warning unless somebody takes their clothes off, but the "slash" warning goes on for something like a kiss or hand-holding between characters of the same sex? What's wrong with this picture? It does make you stop and think. Like you said, if someone stumbles across a piece involving homosexuality and has a problem with it, they know where the back button is, and they know how to use it. Homosexuality doesn't have to be implied as being "bad" just for the comfort of homophobes; all that does is encourages them, and I doubt that any slash writer intends to do that.

In all honesty, though... personally, I barely even notice warnings on other people's stuff, so I don't really see them as being all that powerful. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but I'm probably not the only one. I don't really bother looking, because I'm not really disturbed by much in fiction and I always read from the privacy of my own home. With my own stuff, I just put obnoxious blanket warnings up on my sites, because I find warnings on individual chapters can potentially act as spoilers. On individual posts, I'll warn if the sims get naked, just as a courtesy to those who might be reading in a public place, and I try to warn for potential triggers (though that does often come into conflict with the spoiler thing), but that's about it. Warnings for language, violence, implied sexual situations regardless of hetero/homosexuality... I don't know, those just sort of strike me as unnecessary.

Then again, maybe I just make the mistake of assuming people don't read the warnings just because I don't read the warnings. Obviously, someone noticed the homosexuality warning, hence the reason for this discussion. I don't know. If an author wants to warn, I suppose it's their story, but they should definitely think about what does and what doesn't merit a warning. As someone mentioned before, anything that gets warned about is automatically labeled as being "bad", which homosexuality is most certainly not, and it seems to me that the last thing any slash writer wants to do is imply that it is.

I hope this comment sort of made sense. Sorry if it didn't :(

I think that warning should be for things that may be unsuitable for some people to see. So language, and graphic scenes aren't suitable for, say, younger people. They may not see it in everyday life, so being protected from it on her (via warning) is understandable.

But bi/homosexuality isn't necessarily something that you would be protected from seeing in the real world; you see it nearly everywhere, and you WILL come across it at some point, so having to be warned about that? I don't see how homosexuality would be unsuitable for some people to see, because it's inevitable that you'll have to deal with it at some point.

I think that it is ridiculous to have to warm about it. You wouldn't always get a warning in real life - at least you can usually tell when a person/ if a person is the sort to use strong language, and there'll always be warnings for sexually explicit things, but homosexuality would just be there, right in front of you, and there's not really anything you could do to avoid it, like not listening to people who curse, or seeing explicit stuff.

Gah, I'm having trouble explaining quite what I mean. but anyway, I think that it's completely and utterly unnecassary, and there's no reason that anyone should need to be warned about/protected from it.
Meh. Long post is long.

Couple of points.

Obviously, most people here who put non-heterosexual content in their stories aren't against it, so they don't mean that warning as a bad thing.

This is not true at all. Woman-on-woman porn is popular among straight men. So is porn involving trans women. Let me assure you, however, that most straight men watching this porn definitely do not have the best interests of women, lesbians, or transgendered people at heart.

You would be amazed at how many straight women gush over how 'hot' slash is (even when it is not explicit), while in the same breath stating that femslash is disgusting. You would be amazed at how many straight women enjoy slash while not supporting gay rights. You would be amazed at how many straight women read explicit gay erotica while simultaneously believing homosexuality is a sin. This sort of thing is not rare.

Including marginalized people in fiction is not the same as supporting real, actual members of marginalized groups. It's called fetishizing.

Furthermore, even if someone doesn't "mean" for something to be hurtful (such as "warning" for Teh Gay") doesn't mean it isn't. And I'm sorry, but your comments exemplify this. While I am honestly trying not to get angry, because you do seem like a decent person who means well, but your comments smack of straight privilege. Look at what you said here:

Sure, warning people that objectionable content may be ahead promotes homophobia, but not warning won't necessarily make people accept it, either.

Now, it could be I read this wrong, and maybe you can explain. But it sure looks to me like what you're saying here is that actions supporting institutionalized prejudice don't matter. Attitudes like this are part of the problem. Attitudes like this are just as, if not more, harmful as deliberate acts prejudice.

Attitudes like this validate bigotry - by not only not objecting to actions that promote bigotry, but also engaging in them yourself, you are saying that such actions are acceptable. Maybe you don't mean to, but that is exactly what you are doing. And as a queer woman, you're hurting me; you're hurting my friends and peers; you're hurting their friends and girlfriends and boyfriends; you're hurting our families.

Am I making any sense at all?

I'm too tired to really get into it, but I'll also say that "It's just a game!" and "It's just fiction!" are not defenses.

I remember this topic coming up in your journal before, and my embarrassing efforts to defend such warnings. My opinions might have changed a little because of it.

I agree with the points about the othering aspects of such warnings, but I'd also add: when would such a warning/label even be necessary? What I mean is, if the story is focused in any way on a romantic relationship that should come up in your summary or (if we're talking fanfiction and the like) your Pairings. But if we're talking background fluff or a throwaway line, why should that merit any comment at all? Surely the only people who would care about such a thing are people whose sensibilities we don't want to appeal to?

I understand why people do feel the need to warn (I've done it in the past myself), and part of it comes from "But that's what everybody does!" I think. But...well not buts, it needs to stop.

"You would be amazed at how many straight women gush over how 'hot' slash is (even when it is not explicit), while in the same breath stating that femslash is disgusting. You would be amazed at how many straight women enjoy slash while not supporting gay rights. You would be amazed at how many straight women read explicit gay erotica while simultaneously believing homosexuality is a sin. This sort of thing is not rare."

Oh, my God, this is so true, and I have complained about it elsewhere. Unfortunately, you can't stroll up to every reader, ask a few key questions, and then say "I'm sorry, young lady, but I am impounding your slash: you can have it back when you have thought this through." But I have certainly wished I could.

I know I do not always write same-gender relationships as well as I ought to, but I try to stay alive to this issue.

Well, true. I'm completely with warnings on non-con, etc, but I am on the fence about death. How big a deal is it when a Sim deliberately dies, especially a Knowledge Sim who wants the perverse thrill of being Saved From Death? I guess it depends on the tone, perhaps.

It DOES instantly make for a more mature rating, and this pisses me off.

Okay, I'll take back that first statement you quoted me on. I guess I hadn't thought of those kinds of people. But from what I have seen here in the Sims community, that still holds true.

And by that second quote, I mean that just taking away the "warnings" or whatever else we can call them, isn't going to do the trick. I think if you want to get rid of homophobia, it will take more than just that.

I didn't mean to say anything that validates persecution or bigotry or anything, so I'm sorry for that. This whole subject is something I still have to give a lot of thought to, so what I've been saying isn't really expressing well how I feel about this. I'll try thinking a little more before I talk about it again.

Personally, I just don't understand warning for slash unless you're including a graphic sex scene (in which case I would just say "warning: graphic sex scene").

I haven't commented nearly enough (but know that I'm reading), but I had to skip over to simsecret to read the original conversation after reading this.

I was nodding along, agreeing with the argument/debate/discussion between you and Pooklet (because I really believe you were arguing to the same end and the differences were primarily in phrasing), when I noticed you're from NEWFOUNDLAND!

And I died XD

Sorry to interrupt your awesome discussion in support of dispelling homophobia and encouraging the recognition of the fact that homosexuality is not a topic that deserves a warning, but I really have to say...

Hello, fellow Newfoundlander :D

P.S. I never would've thought "right on" meant anything but "pretty cool" ^^;

Edited 2010-02-28 02:57 (UTC)

I have to comment on the second point. Homophobia and heterosexism are never going to simple go away if people do not pick away at these small, seemingly harmless things like warnings for gay content.

I have been working for community-based organizations and nonprofit NGOs for quite some time now, and this is the only way to really make these changes. Laws and things are great, but they don't change commonly-held beliefs and opinions. It is only through education and advocacy that we can challenge those beliefs and change them. It's asking a classroom of middle schoolers WHY we bully boys for wearing pink as so on (and I have done this, pleased to see at least a handful of lightbulbs lighting up over their heads), it's having the balls (and ovaries) to say that you think a joke is (insert ism here)-ist, even to your friends.

When we're talking about entertainment, which is sort of what we do with sim stories in a very minor way (meaning we're not really making big change unless we're in a more mainstream media, but it does all make some small difference), our best measure for making these changes and promoting acceptance is to just include it, no questions asked.

You don't have to feel bad for expression that opinion. It's good that you brought it up, so we can discuss it. It's quite easy to express a view that is homophobic without realizing it, because it slips by and is never questioned. You just never thought about it that way. It's very positive that, once pointed out to you, you ARE questioning it. For that, I commend you.

When challenging it, we also need to be clear that we're talking about "people who are behaving in homophobic ways" rather than homophobes, bigots, etc. I think that's where we lose people a lot of the time. All of us will behave this way if we aren't aware of the other side. We need to depersonalize it, so people don't automatically get defensive.

I was thinking that when someone mentioned that they wanted to know EXACTLY what happens in a story before they read it. I know I'm probably less sensitive than most, but I don't. I don't want to know everything before I begin. Why even bother to read it, then?

For me, I can stomach anything in a story, as long as it is being presented in a way that allows us to reflect on it, rather than glorifying it. I use the example of American Psycho quite often, but it's a good example. It's horrifically violent and the book especially includes sexual violence that made me physically ill to read them, but it is being presented that way to get a point across, rather than glorifying it as entertainment without question. It's really a very clever critique of violence.

*nods* In a sim story, it's very possible for death to be portrayed as quite cartoon, and not something that will upset readers, so is it necessary to warn in those cases?

Yes b'y. ^_^ Right on!

Are you still living here or are you one of the countless Newfoundlanders living off the island? I'm convinced there are far more out there than those that remain.

I know I'm pushing it when I include Newfoundland expressions, even in quotes, but that's my own desire to see Newfoundland culture put out there, outside of the Newfie jokes and all that "fun stuff." I'd love for people to experience it more often, because it's just so unique.

But yeah, pretty much nobody who doesn't have a connection to Newfoundland will know what you're saying when you ask them, "What are you at?" :P

Yeah, my understanding of the origins of the term slash is that it came from fanfiction where two canonically straight males were portrayed as being sexuallly interested in each other in some form (Oh hai, Spock and Kirk!).

If we're talking about sims, there usually is no "canon" to go against, unless we're talking about the Maxis sims, and even there there are many characters that could easily be more complex than gay vs. straight, even those that are married to the opposite sex (Oh hai, Jason Cleveland!).

I know people use slash now for all gay relationships, but I dislike this usage. I dislike the term in general, but especially for sim stories, with sim sexuality being so mutable. Why categorize sexuality? I'd like to hear one good reason that doesn't involve making people with homophobic leanings more comfortable. I'm still waiting for it.

You said it well with the "slash" vs. "porn" comment. People might require a warning for sexual themes, and especially NSFW material (like the smut I sometimes pander :P), but this is a completely different issue than homosexual content.

(Sorry for all the editing. I kept messing up the wording, and I always press enter too soon.)

Edited 2010-02-28 15:58 (UTC)

That was my point, exactly. Taking away warnings is a good start to ending homophobia and heterosexism, but there needs to be more to it.

Even though I follow a religion that tells me homosexuality and the like is immoral, I'm unsure as to whether anything should be legally prohibited the way it is. In that sense I feel like the parent who finds out his child is gay, and even though I think it's wrong, I still want them to be happy doing what they want.

Technically, my hometown is on the mainland, but the populous is more Newfie than Innu/Innuit so we use all the same slang. I've been living on the island for the past two years and still am. I know some people are touchy about roping the mainland and the island together, but I see it everyday back home. Practically everyone's parents' parents are islanders.

I rarely get the humor in a Newfie joke unless it's told by a Newfie. This province has a lot of amazing comedy and musical acts that just go unnoticed everywhere else.

And don't you mean "Whatcha at?" XD

Could also be "Wadder ya at?" :P That's more like my accent. And you know every tiny community has a different one!

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