strangetomato | Discussion: Strong Female Characters

This is mostly for

will_o_whisper, since we've had many a deep, meaningful conversation on the topic (and the same goes for

smjoshsims), but I thought it might be of interest to a number of you that I can thing of offhand, and maybe even more. It's this article from the latest metafandom post, titled Ladies, Please (Carry On Being Awesome) by

sarahtales. It's more discussion on the idea that we hold female characters up to a different standard than male characters. There's also a link to another article within that one about the Bechdel test, which includes lists of series/stories that pass it (even mentioning videogames such as FFVI, an old favourite of mine).

In particular, I love the example of "Harriet Potter" from this article. Wouldn't Harry most likely have been universally loathed if he were a female protagonist? I really think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm reminded of our conversation on the same topic (Will_o and I), where I mentioned that I thought my take on Frances J. Worthington III would most likely be received very differently if he were female. We (female consumers of stories, more specifically) seem to have a much higher tolerance for bullshit from male characters. Being selffish, whiny, brooding, and/or shy (not to mention the other extreme of assertive, aka bitchy) take on a whole different flavour when the character is a female.

The Sims 2 is more limited when it comes to actual storylines for characters, given that it's an open-ended videogame where you're only given a backstory, but I think it does give us some good examples of strong female characters (depending on how you take them, since it places the gamer in the driver's seat). We are pretty lacking in a female equivalent of Don Lothario, though (there are female romance sims, but none that are linked to so many lovers, with a fiance and all), and I wonder if the term golddigger would even come up if Dina Caliente were male and Mortimer were female. Heheh - imagine that! (How do people relate to that gender-switched Plesantview you can download from MATY? The idea intrigues me, in that it really shouldn't make that much of a difference, should it? But it does.)

Personally, I'm just as interested in "weak" female characters, because the idea of all female characters having to be completely in control and kickass (but not too kickass) is very limiting and also unrealistic. By "strong", I mean well-developed and rounded, for better or worse. Like the author of the article, my own beef with the whole concept presented in the example of the female Harry Potter is that the dominant parameters for a strong female character are often very limiting. I want to see all kinds of female characters, especially weak and messy ones, shown in a sympathetic light. And maybe even as the main character, once in a while.

ETA: Same goes for female villains. I love a good ruthless female bad guy, but I guess that's sort of obvious by now.

Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to some of you. Feel free to discuss in the comments, if ya wanna.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I don't know...

I can readily admit that I get a bit (hah!) irrational when it comes to Y. Mostly over 355. I *hope* I'm not knee-jerking, but it did take me a week to figure out why the changed ending to Coraline bugged me so much.

Yes, women are human. Yes, this means we can be just as mean, stupid, racist, homophobic, insert character failure here as men can. Yes, the series takes place after a mass disaster which , if anything, is underplayed. Yes, everyone is scared and confused, with good reason.

I don't know if I'm being accurate when I say misogynist- I'm not terribly certain what it is that upsets me (aside from 355's treatment). I'm re-reading it, trying to figure it out. It's a bit odd/disconcerting how strong the male gaze is. Nothing really changed after the men died. There was never really the expected perspective shift- I don't mean a womyn-only utopia of bunnies and kittens. It's almost that, in the absence if men, the women became men. I don't know if it's just because it was written by a guy or what. Though Terry Moore and Mike Carey were able to create worlds with different kinds of women in different/evolving role with less head-desking for me. If I can figure out my problem with it more conclusively, I'll pm you.

Huh. I can definitely see your point (and, yeah, the disaster part was underplayed, which is a shame, 'cause I like apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic stuff). However, I take the view that men and women are basically the same mentally*, at least to start off with (cultural conditioning being accountable for the differences in behaviour that do exist), so I didn't see/notice anything amiss.

...although, mind you, the fact that virtually all the characters grew up being conditioned in the same way as people in our world means that there should logically be some sort of difference anyways. But maybe the writers depicted there being no change because it seemed less sexist than the alternative? I dunno.

*One sex may be somewhat more likely to be good at one thing or have a certain personality trait, but I don't think there's a strong enough trend for it to be much more than a statistic curiosity.

While we're on the topic of Pleasantview: I think a sex-changed Brandi Broke would be drastically different as well. Instead of seeing her as a welfare mom failing to provide for her kids ("OMG, why'd she have so many?"), unattractive to suitors because of the baggage of three kids, he'd be a single dad ("Isn't it sweet he's taking care of all his kids after the tragic death of his wife?"), viewed as attractive to women for his sense of responsibility proved simply by not abandoning his young. Basically, female Brandi Broke is Danny Tanner from Full House.

Hmmm... On the one hand, I love a good ass-kicking female character, which is not the same as a strong female character, as others have pointed out. On the other hand, trying to write for one, and sometimes reading one, sometimes makes them seem contrived and self-consciously ass-kicking to me. It's a catch-22. I don't want men to be attracted to only wilting flower female characters, but I resent when kicking-ass becomes commodified as just another thing that makes a girl sexy.

Sometimes I even feel resentful of the idea of writing for a "female character", because I'm anti-gender binary, and it feels like "female" is part of her body, and not a part of her character. But in a world where everyone has been socialized according to gender, that's not practical either.

Forgot to say, I'm adding you, by the way. Because I love your stories, and you seem to think cool things.

Oh, you're right, aren't you? All the Maxis makeup does work for males. What am I thinking about, then? Is it some cc makeup that doesn't work for the males? I remember noticing something about that.

Some cc makeup can be pretty hit-or-miss as to who can wear it so that's probably what you're thinking of. :) I've definitely come across stuff (mostly blushes and eyeshadows iirc) women could use but men couldn't. Not so much vice versa, though.

Hi! Basically, I agree with everything here. I think that female characters are judged more harshly, and especially by women, because we are so wary of them being stereotypical. If a white male does something bad, only he is blamed; when a female does it, all women must be like that, or a least we think that that was the intention.

The Sims, as a game, is great for this, in that there are no real game-play differences between male and female sims. There aren't any gender-based actions, or interactions.

Everyone else had so great examples, but the whole time I was thinking about Mary-Sue. I won't read about the Pleasants anymore, mostly because she was so often portrayed as a shrill cold harpy, no wonder Daniel stepped out on her! (smjoshsims' story is an exception to this rule.) Maybe I'm biased because I'd be a finance sim, but it always bothered me.

There is a reversed Pleasantview available--Weivtnasaelp. When I played it, it turned out that Brandi was a whiney Alcoholic male, Mary-Sue was just a dull-as-dishwater breadwinner, and Cassandra was an immature wimp. Lilith and Angela weren't nearly as interesting. Don is smoking as a female--but still a slut, and of course, the consequence being lots of children

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Discussion: Strong Female Characters

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Wee, first comment. A day late, but still.

Strong Female Characters--Brandi Broke, Mary-Sue, Cassandra