I'm trying to think of something actually useful to say but I'm quite brainfoggy today, so: I like this post and think you and the resulting discussion are extremely nifty.
I think the shorthand of "strong female character" often gets misinterpreted to mean just literally physically strong, instead of what we really mean, which is well-rounded, deep, believable, human characters rather than a collage of stereotypes sticky-taped together (but then if a well-rounded character does exhibit a stereotype, she's then trashed because of it. We can't win). And then every time we have this conversation we have to explain to noobs what we actually mean, and it gets very frustrating.
(I'm partly just distracted by my extreme boggling that some people want Ophelia out of the picture - I mean, what? I had no idea that was going on. Bloody hell.)
The point you bring up about Frances in particular is really interesting - I'm trying to do a thought-experiment in my head and I feel pretty confident that the only thing that'd grate is her classism, but that grates with the guy version as well. I think you do a really good job of making him sympathetic to me despite, or possibly even because, of his casual classism. Having Beau gently mock him for it really does wonders for me.
For me in my own writing it's really hard for me to draw a line between where my own failure to accurately show how I see my characters ends and where the complete unwillingness to empathise with or understand a forthright and assertive female character on the part of a reader begins. I think I'm getting better at discerning where that line is for me, but I won't say the whole process isn't excruciatingly frustrating and for me a little upsetting.
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I think the shorthand of "strong female character" often gets misinterpreted to mean just literally physically strong, instead of what we really mean, which is well-rounded, deep, believable, human characters rather than a collage of stereotypes sticky-taped together (but then if a well-rounded character does exhibit a stereotype, she's then trashed because of it. We can't win). And then every time we have this conversation we have to explain to noobs what we actually mean, and it gets very frustrating.
(I'm partly just distracted by my extreme boggling that some people want Ophelia out of the picture - I mean, what? I had no idea that was going on. Bloody hell.)
The point you bring up about Frances in particular is really interesting - I'm trying to do a thought-experiment in my head and I feel pretty confident that the only thing that'd grate is her classism, but that grates with the guy version as well. I think you do a really good job of making him sympathetic to me despite, or possibly even because, of his casual classism. Having Beau gently mock him for it really does wonders for me.
For me in my own writing it's really hard for me to draw a line between where my own failure to accurately show how I see my characters ends and where the complete unwillingness to empathise with or understand a forthright and assertive female character on the part of a reader begins. I think I'm getting better at discerning where that line is for me, but I won't say the whole process isn't excruciatingly frustrating and for me a little upsetting.
TL;DR: As always, IBTP.