strangetomato | A whole lot of isms, but mostly heterosexism.

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A whole lot of isms, but mostly heterosexism.

Given that this Sunday, May 17, is the International Day Against Homophobia, it's interesting that I was recently called out for being heterosexist. To my face, by a lesbian. I was pretty embarrassed. (Not that it would be any better to have this pointed out in another way, but I felt pretty careless.)

I had designed a quick little poster for a community Seniors Appreciation Day event, and all of the clip art used on it (yeah, go ahead and laugh at the clip art, but my job isn't as a designer - there's no time or money to make it nicer) featured elderly male/female couples.

In my defense, I was lucky to find anything that showed seniors being happy and doing anything besides sitting on a couch at home (no joke - many of them actually featured graveyards). We wanted dancing and eating and having fun AND elderly people, and I barely found that. There's literally nothing that tackles ageism AND heterosexism. It seems like you can only tackle one of these issues at a time (though there was a little racial diversity in there, I'll give them that much).

It's amazing how easy it is to be heterosexist. Unlike homophobia, you do it by default, by doing nothing. I like to think I'm pretty good about this stuff, because I actually think about it most of the time and even point it out to other people when they say something that assumes the world to be straight (you get mixed results when you suggest that someone's baby might actually grow up to be gay, let me warn you, true though it may be). So if I can do it by accident, then you can too. If you're constantly vigilant about it, then I salute you, but it can be tough to get it right all the time.

To relate this back to sims, it's got me to thinking about portrayals of LGBT characters in sim stories, just like any other media. I've read some interesting articles and posts on this topic recently (relating to different fandoms, but same difference), and it really is worth considering. I try to write about characters first and foremost, and so they have flaws and make bad decisions and all that, but I do try to be conscious of the messages my stories are sending, whether intended or not.

As for homophobia, I did make a very conscious decision to include that in my sim world, as much as I love the idea of a world without it. My sim world simulates the world I live in, and that includes most of its problems too. Also, there's no way to examine something if you ignore its existence, and I'm very interested in exploring gender/sexuality in my characters. It's something of a theme in my story, I suppose, if you want to put that much weight on it (which is probably a bit of a stretch).

So how do you feel about this as a creator or reader of sim stories? Feel free to discuss it in the comments, if you like.

Also, go ahead and critique the way I do things in relation to this topic, if you want to, so I can further consider and examine them. I know I could always fall back on "it's just a sim story," but I don't actually believe that excuses me in any way. I'm putting content out into the world, so I'm engaging in the way things are portrayed, even though it's a small and very specialized audience.

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Yes, indeed. Everyone is always talking loudly and obnoxiously into their phone on the train about unimportant personal stuff. I'm not a fan. I also hate all the useless crap you can buy and download for phones and how it's marketed. All of those things I can do on a computer where they are cheaper and better. Phones are for calling and sending texts - but be a little polite about it, dammit!

...I'm not 80 years old, honest.

One of the things that I find genuinely upsetting in Sims 2 fandom is when sim stories and legacies actually put up warnings for gay sims.

XD I did that when I was younger! I don't anymore because it doesn't matter to me and if it matters to you well... oh well.

Ack. It's difficult to counter several stereotypes at once (Old people are happy? And do things other than sit on the couch and yell at kids on their lawns?), but I do think that this isn't your fault.
It is difficult to get it right all the time, and I try to remind people too (if I think that they won't kill me for doing it).

Generally, I don't really like the way that a lot of sim stories treat homosexuals, or queer issues in general. However, I don't think this is restricted to just Sims - this is a problem in a lot of fanfiction. It can be well addressed at times, but the majority of stories either a) do not address the issue at all (not necessarily bad) or b) are all "LOL BUTTSECKS".

I think that the way you've portrayed the homophobia is fairly realistic, even though Tank is not particularly bad, as far as some homophobia goes. I also like that you've kind of addressed some other queer/intersex style issues with Stella as well.
I think it's difficult for a story to address gay issues without being like "LOOK A GAY I AM TOTALLY GROUNDBREAKING" or having other similar issues that I talked about above, and I think that you addressing queer issues with secondary characters has been quite effective.

We always called it 'heteronormativity' but heterosexist works well too.

I don't know how well I expressed myself here, but I hope you get my drift :D.

Heee, I was going to comment on that too, but thought I'd leave it to an actual Norwegian :P.

(By the way, everyone should move here. There are fantastic laws for gay people and women (OMG your maternity leave is the BEST.))

Haha. :D We still have many issues to work through, but the new marriage law made me very happy.

Oh right, you're still here! :D How long are you staying, by the way? Hope you're enjoying it here.

I was actually amazed when I learned about how shitty maternity leave is in many other countries - especially the US and Australia! Like, no paid leave at all? Seriously?

You sound like my SO, who has no time for extremely PC thinking as a rule, even when he agrees with the concept. I agree that nobody should have their head ripped off over it (and it wasn't at all that harsh in my case), but I still think this stuff is worth considering.

It's easy to roll your eye at things like spelling womyn with a y, but without those actions to that extreme, we'd probably still be calling it mankind instead of humankind. I don't think I should have to make everything inclusive to absolutely everyone all the time, but it's more about harm reduction for me. It's just as easy for me to ask someone if they are dating "anyone" than to ask if they have a boy/girlfriend, so I do think behaviour like that can (and should) be easily changed.

I've also gotten myself tangled up when it comes to trans people once or twice, and I'm very much someone who's not down with gendered thinking. It can be hard to always be perfectly inclusive. Overall, though, I think it's worth being aware of it and doing what you can do to be respectful.

One of the things that I find genuinely upsetting in Sims 2 fandom is when sim stories and legacies actually put up warnings for gay sims.

I agree.

Yeah, she wasn't really rude about it, but she was pretty direct. I didn't mind. (I should have added that "this story may have been exaggerated to make it more interesting.")

One of the things that I find genuinely upsetting in Sims 2 fandom is when sim stories and legacies actually put up warnings for gay sims.

The conflict-avoidance is strong in me, but I often think I should leave a comment saying something like, "I hope you're going to warn for heterosexual sims, too,"

Oh man, that makes me want to write something quick and stupid purely so I can have a warning like:

WARNING: Sims having heterosexual sex in the missonary position on a bed with the lights off.

The "should have been more polite/should have worded it differently/etc." thing is what's generally known as a tone argument. That link is fandom- and racism-specific, but it applies to other oppressions, too.

I think what some people might not understand is that much of the time, the only time someone will point out an -ism in their everyday life is when they genuinely think highly enough of you (general you) to know that you're probably not intentionally being a jerk, so they say, "Hey, [thing you did/said] wasn't cool." I mean, I'm not really interested in getting into a debate with Fred Phelps, for example, because he isn't going to listen and it'd just be a frustrating and exhausting waste of time. But one of my friends, someone who I know to generally be thoughtful and have good intentions? I am going to point it out, because I don't think my friends want to unintentionally be jerks. Does that make sense? (It's a bit late here; I'm getting talky.)

"Heterosexism" is a curious thing- even by having the word exist is a form of it; it's still implying (or flat out saying) that heterosexuality is the "norm, even though a "norm" in sexuality is a laughable concept at best. ("Heteronormative" is another concept that irks me to no end: if you're raised with the expectation that you'll fall in love and marry, why is it *hetero* normaltive if you marry a person of the same (or trans) gender? It's just f-ing normalitive, isn't it?! [granted, this is the same thing that pisses me off about "white trash"- it implies that the same behaviours are acceptable and expected in other races, but how dare a white person sink so low]).

Ugh, too many digressions. Sorry.

I haven't shown too much of the world at large in my story yet, because I've been focusing on the family. But, I've already shown Vid as being a bit heterosexist. He loves his nephew, and always looks out for him, but he's shown a fairly rigid idea of gender. (And all in one sentence! ::dork::)

Like you, I'm a fan of a certain degree of hermaphroism in aliens. (I especially wanted to explore that to become a better trans-ally- it still bothers me that situations like admission to the Michigan Women's Music Festival still gives me pause. My 1st reaction was, oh course let them in! they're women! But then I started thinking of the activities there, and how I would feel seeing a penis in that environment. I was torn- she has the right to keep her penis if she wants to, and I would be find dating a woman who had made that choice. But there are times I simply do not want to see a penis (which is most of the time, frankly), and it feels like a loose- loose.)

I'm sure as the story grows, I'll have characters that are less accepting/ jerks for whatever reason, but there's too much damn hate in the world already, and I'd like a bit of shelter from it (queer poc here). I'll let it occur naturally, but I'm not going to go out of my way to engineer it. (ex. Vid- wow, it seems like I'm picking on him, eh?- has never really been comfortable that Pascal's ex/best friend Abheijet's a full time drag queen. It just screws with his head on so many levels, among them the idea of his brother dating someone who owns a bra.)

I've done the searches for art as well, and I've found a lot of good stuff at getty images. Why not invite your co-worker to help you find more variety?

The younger of the 2 boys (not related) that I sit for is, at this moment, "pretty gay". He's never expressed an interest in boys (and in fact has stated that he plans to marry me), and loves a lot of the traditional boy things like cars, and trains. I also have a pic of him at school in a purple princess dress and a huge cheesey smile (his folks have a copy of it on the fridge), and we had a mani-pedi day when I painted his finger and toe nails yellow at his request. (And, I've caught him being a bit of a bitch to other kids a few times). His dad is a bit weirded out by it, but as a whole his parents are just letting him be himself, knowing that the things he loves at 4 may not matter when he's 24. And really, what's the difference to a 4 year old between dressing up as a pilot and as a princess? I've only ever discussed it with his mom, and neither of us came out and said, "yea, he's probably gay"- mostly because I wasn't sure how she'd react. Though I did say he'd be fine either way, he's a great kid and insanely cute- he'll have to beat everyone off with a stick, anyway.

As far as critique goes, I'd have to go back and re-read, since I don't think anything's caught my eye in a negative way. Honestly (wow, is it on my brain lately or what?) the Ripp/Stella arc was a leap *away* from heterosexism. I think it counts for a lot that you didn't go on the offensive and refuse to hear her, instead choosing to really look at yourself and your work.

That's a fantastic compromise. Even if there were an even number of het elders, how many of them would be divorced/widdowed and never remarried? The couple-centric bit is another good point.

Being respectful and aware is good, that's one thing. My objection is to the idea that anyone has to constantly double-check every single thing they do to make sure it's all-inclusive. Not possible, and ultimately, I maintain it's a poor goal because I do firmly believe it perpetuates the "us and them" mentality. There is no "us and them"; it's all "us".

Best bet for transfolk is just to ask what they prefer (assuming you're aware in the first place, natch). Maybe they're semi-closeted and in some situations want you to use the birth gender and the name that goes with it. Maybe they're fully embracing their real gender and living full-time that way, so don't want any references to their birth gender or name at all. Or maybe they're gender-fluid by choice.

I have a friend who falls into that category. Birth gender is male, and professionally and academically, he presents as male with his birth name or nickname. Socially, though, there are times when using "she" (and a different name) is right... though it's easy to switch, because when she's chosen to do that, you will be able to tell. She really is a very different person as a woman, not just in terms of dress and appearance but also in mannerisms. I don't know if I've ever seen her in jeans anyhow (unlike when he's male) but if she did show up in jeans I'd still know it was her and not him because they move differently.

Heh, and while I typed all the genders appropriately up there, reading back over it, I can see why some people get confused on the topic.

While I agree with everything you've said - it's something that western culture seems to do by default; be heterosexist.

Is that girl srs? Even if there /were/ elderly homosexuals in that Senior Center ... do you think they are "out", or talk about being gay with their peers? It's one thing to jump on a cause like that, it's a complete 'nother to be a dick about something that is WORTHLESS. If you had put homosexual couples on that poster, can you imagine the shit storm those old people would've caused?

My god. What a stupid thing to be ~righteous~ about. I haaaaaate the gay community sometimes. It's why I never go to pride parades. Give me a Milk-esque riot anyday, sparkles and ~why can't we all get along~? So not my scene.

That makes sense, and I think I misread the entry and thought that the woman actually outright called

strangetomato heterosexist, which doesn't seem to be the case.

However, I have always been taught that you catch more flies with honey. Not that people shouldn't stand up for themselves, and not that people should be pleading or fawning when they address important issues -- but in general, calling people names or accusing them of being racist or sexist or homophobic (even if they are) just aggravates the situation and leads them to shut out any positive message they could possibly receive. Firmly but politely telling someone that they are infringing on your rights is the best way to approach things, I think. But that's just my opinion. :)

I'm speaking more about heterosexism than homophobia there
So am I, but let me rephrase then ?
The problem is when heterosexism, as in generalizing that everyone is straight, is automatically called out as an homophobic take. Some time generalizations are just 'that', and not bad indented, but can be taken wrongly very easily. (plus I'm sure, you could put a same sex couple on an adv/poster like that, and someone else will come out and criticize anyways, because the same sex couple is present. It's a delicate topic, unfortunately, people get offended one way or another)

And no, I didn't say I never mention it, just that I don't tend to consider a special kind of difference that needs to be constantly pointed out. I mean, for example, you say :"you get mixed results when you suggest that someone's baby might actually grow up to be gay" TRUE! Of course you do, but IMO you get mixed results if you suggest someone's baby might actually grow up to be all sorts of things (gay, straight, republican, democrat, theist, atheist, Jew, catholic, artist, scientist, you name it) depending on who are you referring to and/or talking with.

But yeah, I might just be missing the point of your discussion, sorry about that.

As for the way gay sims, generally speaking, are portrayed in stories and legacies, I guess again depends a bit on the point of view.

I've been hearing buttsex jokes way before reading sim stories, and learned the term from a gay friend actually, but yeah, I can agree with you about it in part, BUT the same can be said for heterosexuality and generally many other topics. Sim stories tend to be a bit biased IMO (traditional family= man/woman couple, husband cheating, 4 perfect kids) but again, you see the same in many other aspect of life too (books, tv, movies, etc).

I think you manage to find a good balance on that sense, btw, a bit of light humor, without being too over the top.

Well, I think a better example of "heterosexism" is the first one I was exposed to, courtesy of Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For.

Toni and Clarice are about to have their commitment ceremony (at least a decade before their son is born), and the staff of Madwimmin books are discussing what gifts their giving. Mo (anti-marriage) makes several disparaging remarks about her friends' choice. Jezanna calls her on it, "Mo, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were being heterosexist!"

Mo sputters, "Heterosexist?! Me?!"

"You're behaving just like you've been programmed to: Two women love each other, and want to celebrate that love publicly, and you bash them for it."

It's more of mindfulness than being overly pc. And heck, I've done it too, and I'm queer- by assuming someone was straight, or that they would/wouldn't be into something because of gender expectations. And you'd think as often I've been the only black chick at a goth club I'd no better than that.

Edited 2009-05-14 18:21 (UTC)

Hah, yea, I'm thrilled with not being categorized as farm equipment. I had a (white) co-worker say something about how great everything used to be and the manager saw my expression and shut him up before I could rip his throat out.

I try to keep a rule- it's a new one- that males can only get pregnant through sex if they're of alien decent. I ended up "having" to get the preg for all hack because I didn't think it was fair that the gay couples didn't have to "work for it" like the het ones do, but I haven't used it yet. (Seriously, I can't believe how many tries it takes sometimes!)

Hmm, I like that idea! I might steal it for my sims at some point, we'll see how far I get with my alien population. I'm still not entirely sure how to explain why the aliens only impregnate males, though... Maybe they think it's only fair? Hee. (I could work with that, easier to find available male "hosts" since there's no way they'll be already pregnant...)

My sims breed like bunnies, especially with ACR in. Sometimes it takes many tries, but most of the time it's instant success.

Your rule about alien descent is the opposite of mine. Hybrid aliens can impregnate anyone, but the males do not get pregnant themselves (unless it's by another hybrid sim). It's the "pollen" that has the ability to develop in any environment (as in the "probing" of your average male sim, who do not have wombs).

Probably doesn't hold up to close examination, but it works for me.

The warning thing irks me, too. I decided that if I were to ever toss up a warning (which I still may do when I'm ready to advertise in some of the communities) I'd just mention *everything*: sims is same sex relationships, sims in different sex relationship, Llamish (Jewish) sims, (whatever I decide to call gentile) sims, mixed generational relationships (PT and Jenny), mixed species relationships (PT and Jenny, etc), sims in interracial relationships, and so on.

Because really. I think "work safe" or "not work safe" is enough. D:

My theory was that they target those sims that weren't likely to reproduce on their own (aka single male nerds, errr, knowledge sims), in an effort to step on less toes.

Ah, yes, that's right. Hee, thinking of any knowledge sims in particular? ;) That does make sense, but it would include lesbians too (I don't have the alien-pregnancy-for-females-hack)... well, they could always get a sperm donor, I guess!

I love that icon, by the way. I'll have to go back and read the Stella/Ripp stuff, it was pretty awesome.

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A whole lot of isms, but mostly heterosexism.

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